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Enemy subs a tricky target
Honolulu Star Bulletin ^ | 19 March 2006 | Gregg K. Kakesako

Posted on 03/19/2006 3:50:10 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham

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To: A.A. Cunningham

We should reopen Midway Atoll as an ASW platform.


21 posted on 03/19/2006 5:08:58 PM PST by Lancer_N3502A
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To: fso301
Because the diesel electrics are regional craft.

So? We live in a region, and we have long coastlines. Plus we have a few places where a "choke point" defense might be handy as well. The approaches to the Panama canal, or the Florida Straits and Yucatan Channel, to name just two. Any diesel electric, or a sub with AIP (Air Independent Propulsion)that *we* built could sneak right up behind a Chinese or Russian nuke.

Even when the Soviets had a substantial blue water Navy, they still had lots of diesel electrics, including the Kilo which they sold all over the world. The Germans, Dutch, French and even the Swedes, have sold DE boats to quite a few countries as well, particularly in South America.

At one time it was reported that US yards were going to build some foreign designed DE's for Taiwan.

Not that the article doesn't even mention AIP type subs,which would be both quite and not need to come up anywhere near as often as a DE type. They might be a bit nosier than a DE running on batteries, but, at need, they could do that as well.

22 posted on 03/19/2006 5:11:59 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Paul_Denton
Israel's Dolphin class has a range of 400 miles at 8 knots under water. but there is no data on the Russian Kilo class that China has

Sure their is, you just have to know where to look :).

7,500 miles With snorkel (@ 7 knots)
400 miles Submerged (@ 3 knots)
?? miles At full run (@ 20 knots)
45 days Sea Endurance

23 posted on 03/19/2006 5:18:40 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Rockpile
Yep. The navy takes D-Es quite seriously ....the USN 'rented' a Swedish Gotland D-E submarine for exercises where they would try to find and 'sink' the Swedish manned sub.

The thing is D-E subs are quite possibly the greatest (if not also the only) real threat to the USN, since the Soviet navy is basically no more and effective navies like those of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense force and the British Royal Navy will not be facing off against us. China is working on some nuke subs, but they are still too noisy to think of EVER facing off against our LA subs (let alone the 3 Seawolves and the new Virginias).

There are some effective missiles that could harbor a threat, but to be a danger they have to be fired and I am certain that the USN would be doing all it can to ensure the enemy doesn't have the chance (and just to be safe I am certain that any naval assets passing, say, the Strait of Hormuz, will have some serious Aegis backup .....and anyways Iran doesn't have sufficient stock to ever come close to overwhelming our defenses .....China may, but not at present).

The only real threat is a quiet modern D-E sub (especially one with AIP) sitting quietly in littoral waters trying to nab one of our ships. Basically a manned mine. And with some of the weaponry carried by some of the D-E subs (eg some of the KLUB ACSMs) it is a threat that has some teeth. Anyways, the USN seems to be training hard and well to meet the threat.

24 posted on 03/19/2006 5:20:21 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: El Gato

The "radar" underwater is the Magnetic Anomaly Detector or "MAD" gear, does just what it says. There are some nasty surface search radars out there including the APS-137B on the P-3 as well as the Searchwater radar of the Brit Nimrod. These radars, in essence, search out stationary targets on a motion-filled sea surface, such as a periscope, and do so with great accuracy.


25 posted on 03/19/2006 5:23:53 PM PST by Per-Ling
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Obviously there are lots of Navy folks on FR so this seems a good place to ask a few questions.

1. How expensive is a sonobuoy?

2. When they are dropped during exercises are they picked up and used again? What about during wartime?

3. Do they have any signal processing onboard or do they simply relay signals?


26 posted on 03/19/2006 5:27:43 PM PST by ko_kyi
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To: ko_kyi
1. How expensive is a sonobuoy?

There are several different kinds - they run from under $1000 to, er, more than that depending...

2. When they are dropped during exercises are they picked up and used again? What about during wartime?

No. The ones the article references sink to the bottom after use. They can be retrieved but it's generally considered more expensive to do so than to let them sink.

3. Do they have any signal processing onboard or do they simply relay signals?

A lot - the P-3C Update III had an entire new suite of signal processing gear. Recordings are also re-processed by even better gear ashore after the missions.

From experience I can tell you that unless things have changed radically a P-3C with passive sonobuoys doesn't really stand a lot of a chance against a diesel-electric on battery unless the crew gets lucky. Shallow water makes it more difficult, not less. The very best anti-submarine weapon is another submarine.

27 posted on 03/19/2006 5:42:48 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: El Gato; Paul_Denton

Of course, German subs were busy sinking ships up and down the eastern seaboard, as well as the Gulf of Mexico, during WWII.


28 posted on 03/19/2006 6:05:10 PM PST by biggerten (Love you, Mom.)
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To: ko_kyi

Oh, sorry - rereading your third question I see that you meant any signal processing gear on the buoy itself. The answer is no, at least not the sort you're talking about. The signal processing is done aboard the aircraft.


29 posted on 03/19/2006 6:10:11 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Doohickey

Heh.

And with the sail broached.


30 posted on 03/19/2006 6:14:23 PM PST by PogySailor (CPL PogySailor coming home from Iraq in April!)
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To: dhuffman@awod.com

Okay - what boat were you on?


31 posted on 03/19/2006 6:20:44 PM PST by Castlebar
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To: A.A. Cunningham
The Kockums Stirling AIP System


32 posted on 03/19/2006 6:50:12 PM PST by blam (Old diesel sub sailor)
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To: blam

Doesn't the Germans make a littoral class of sub with the AIP?


33 posted on 03/19/2006 6:56:31 PM PST by Eye of Unk
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To: Eye of Unk

Don't Know.


34 posted on 03/19/2006 7:20:24 PM PST by blam
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To: gondramB
Flashback: Toshiba

Glad you reminded us of it. It was an important event to my turn to conservatism. I was in college then, the product of DC liberals and attending a stupidly liberal central NY State private school. I was stunned and betrayed by what Toshiba had done.

I understood very clearly the political connection between those who were outraged by it and those who were not. It helped turn me.

35 posted on 03/19/2006 7:38:53 PM PST by nicollo (All economics are politics)
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To: nicollo

"I understood very clearly the political connection between those who were outraged by it and those who were not. It helped turn me."

Its funny -with all the thousands of things we observe how pivotal some few can be...


36 posted on 03/19/2006 7:43:18 PM PST by gondramB (Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

B57 nuclear weapon (5-20kt yield).

We used to have these to use if we could figure out the general area an enemy sub was lurking. No pin-pointing required.

37 posted on 03/19/2006 7:50:02 PM PST by EricT. ("I reject your reality and substitute my own."-Adam Savage)
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To: SmithL
Submarines are hard to find? When did this happen?

LOL!

38 posted on 03/20/2006 12:37:36 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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To: gondramB

I remember the Toshiba Treachery.


39 posted on 03/20/2006 12:45:38 AM PST by truemiester (If the U.S. should fail, a veil of darkness will come over the Earth for a thousand years)
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To: Billthedrill

Thanks for the info!


40 posted on 03/20/2006 4:11:24 AM PST by ko_kyi
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