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To: Non-Sequitur
And I wait with baited breath and some indication that the southern leaders had a more enlightened view of Indians.

The Confederacy had one more Cherokee general than the Union had Black generals (Stand Watie, Cherokee Regiment of Mounted Rifles). Whatever intertribal agenda Watie may have had- the immutable fact is that it is no small thing to be made a general officer in one's country's army.

Virtually all historical figures- with few exceptions- fall short, when one views history through modern eyes. It is really necessary to judge such men from within the ethical framework of the times in which they lived. In modern times, it is easy to find horrifying quotes from Confederate (and Union, for that matter) principals. By the standards of the 1860s though- Lee and Jackson were ahead of their time. Jackson's Sunday School- mentioned previously in this thread was not just about worship- but included also reading lessons. That was in open defiance of Virginia law in the 1850s. I have read (but in fairness have not yet substantiated or confirmed) that Jackson, as a young man, forged a pass for one of his uncle's slaves (whom he had also taught to read) so that he could escape to the North.

The North wasn't Heaven, and the South wasn't Hell. Neither is the reverse true. The more I study this period of history, the more 'shades of gray' and surprises that I find. And pretty much nobody carrying a rifle on either side, except for the black regiments of the Union Army and certain officers of both sides, was there with the specific intent of influencing slavery one way or another. By and large, Billy Yank was there because part of the Union was in rebellion. Johnny Reb was there because 'y'all are down here'. And of course- a lot of them joined up because it seemed at the time a grand and glorious adventure- for a short time, at least.

There is no doubt in my mind that the South of the 1860s was full of sentiment which is reprehensible to the modern eye. Such sentiment wasn't hard to find even in historically recent times. (I have an aunt who lived there during Segregation, and found it utterly repulsive). But also true- is that the North was no Eden to black people who made it there, either. Bottom line? We've grown a lot as a country, and those were different times altogether. You take a hundred randomly-selected modern Americans off the street and transport them back to say, a city in a border state in 1860- and most of them would be firebrand Abolitionists- a position which at the time was somewhere between Avant Garde and fringe-y counterculture. Today, it's the only position that makes any sense at all.

81 posted on 02/27/2006 5:39:47 AM PST by Riley ("What color is the boathouse at Hereford?")
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To: Riley
The Confederacy had one more Cherokee general than the Union had Black generals (Stand Watie, Cherokee Regiment of Mounted Rifles). Whatever intertribal agenda Watie may have had- the immutable fact is that it is no small thing to be made a general officer in one's country's army.

The confederacy had one more Cherokee general than it had black officers for that matter. Still, according to Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, Vol. 4, there were 3,530 Native Americans who served with the Union Army. Including Ely Samuel Parker, Bvt. Brigadier General of Volunteers, Chief of Staff to the Commanding General of the U.S. Armies Ulysses S. Grant.

By the standards of the 1860s though- Lee and Jackson were ahead of their time.

On the contrary they were very much in keeping with their peers at the time.

Jackson's Sunday School- mentioned previously in this thread was not just about worship- but included also reading lessons.

A common tale but simply not true. Jackson taught a Sunday School sponsored by the Presbyterian Church of which he was member. There was nothing surprising or unusual in that, churches throughout the south believed that it was their mission to bring Christ to the slave population. But the claims that he taught slaves to read and write is simply not true. Jackson was a methodical man who kept to a strict syllabus. Byron Farwell laid it out in his biography of Jackson:

"School began promptly at three o'clock each Sunday, and there were no latecomers. Jackson locked the doors. Service began with a hymn, invariably "Amazing Grace," for this was the only song he could manage to make recognizably tuneful. (Dr. White, speaking of Jackson's ignorance of "the science of music," declared theat he had "neither ear nor voice for singing.") Jackson then led the school in prayer, which was followed by relating as story or reading them a passage from the Bible, after which the students were turned over to teachers for lessons drawn from the Shorter Catechism or perhaps Charles Colock Jones's A Catechism for Colored Persons (Charleston 1834). When called together again they sang, said a prayer, and were dismissed. Under Jackson's supervision, the entire session lasted exactly fourty-five minuted."

There were no reading lessons, or any other education except for exposure to the Bible.

I have read (but in fairness have not yet substantiated or confirmed) that Jackson, as a young man, forged a pass for one of his uncle's slaves (whom he had also taught to read) so that he could escape to the North.

Jackson lived with his uncle for 11 years between the time his father died and the time he entered West Point. He was very fond of his uncle and the idea that he would disobey him, or willingly break the law, are not supported by any evidence I've seen. Jackson had no problem with slavery, owning as many as 9 or 10 at one time himself.

93 posted on 02/27/2006 5:42:19 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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