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Irving pleads guilty and backtracks on Holocaust denial
The Times (UK) ^ | February 20, 2006 | By Philippe Naughton and agencies in Vienna

Posted on 02/20/2006 7:33:14 AM PST by aculeus

David Irving, the revisionist historian, pleaded guilty today to criminal charges of denying the Holocaust and conceded that he had been mistaken when he claimed that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz.

But, in comments to reporters and in testimony before a Viennese court, the British writer denied that he had ever written a book specifically about the Holocaust and said that after revision of his own views he now accepted that million of Jews were indeed murdered in Nazi death camps.

"I am not a Holocaust denier. My views have changed," he said. "History is a constantly growing tree: the more you learn, the more documents are available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989.

"Yes, there were gas chambers," Mr Irving added. "Millions of Jews died, there is no question. I don’t know the figures. I’m not an expert on the Holocaust."

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Extended News
KEYWORDS: austria; davidirving; freespeech; holocaust; holocaustdenial; holocaustdenier; hoocaust; irving
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To: sheltonmac

What "Nazi-like" tactics have been used on David Irving?


41 posted on 02/20/2006 9:54:53 AM PST by veronica ("A person needs a sense of mission like the air he breathes...")
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To: Acts 2:38
And many of those events were far graver than the one Iriving denied.

So Holocaust denial should be tolerated because other "more grave" events have not been as highlighted?? I don't get that logic.

42 posted on 02/20/2006 9:57:05 AM PST by veronica ("A person needs a sense of mission like the air he breathes...")
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To: veronica

You don't think arresting someone for saying something you disagree with "Nazi-like"?


43 posted on 02/20/2006 9:57:51 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: veronica

It shouldn't be illegal.


44 posted on 02/20/2006 9:58:49 AM PST by Sometimes A River (allow Common Sense and Faith to trump Logic and Reason)
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To: sheltonmac

And by the way, the case Irving lost in the UK, he brought, against Deborah Lipstadt. Nobody went after him.


45 posted on 02/20/2006 10:01:40 AM PST by veronica ("A person needs a sense of mission like the air he breathes...")
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To: veronica

He filed criminal charges against himself?


46 posted on 02/20/2006 10:06:27 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: veronica
You are giving isolated examples of denials of other atrocities, as a way of excusing Holocaust denial

Well you asked for them. And they are not isolated. As I said - denial of communist crimes (which were, I repeat, much worse) is indefinitely more common than denial of German crimes and moreover is seen as something completely normal. I asked a question earlier and you didn't answer it. Do you think that all these people who deny communist crimes should be prosecuted? Do you think that all these people with Che Guevara t-shirts should be prosecuted for "promoting communism"? Can you imagine a city in Germany named "Himmlerburg"? Well, there is a city in Russia which is still named "Kaliningrad" (after Soviet head of state during Stalin's era). Where is the outcry? Why isn't anybody protesting? When Putin said that "the fall of the USSR was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the XX century" we smiled and said that it probably wasn't "the wisest thing to say", What would happen if Angela Merkel said that "the fall of the Third Reich was the greatest geopolitical tragedt of the XX century"? I'm not excusing anybody. I just don't think it's a good idea to put people into prison for speech.

47 posted on 02/20/2006 10:07:09 AM PST by Tarkin (Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.)
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To: veronica
So Holocaust denial should be tolerated because other "more grave" events have not been as highlighted??

No, the question is, what makes the Holocaust so special? If denying the Grand Famine is not prosecuted, why should Holocaust denial be prosecuted? Or do you think that denying Grand Famine should also be prosecuted?

48 posted on 02/20/2006 10:10:45 AM PST by Tarkin (Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.)
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To: veronica
I'm surprised someone of your intelligence seems to support (or at least, refuses to condemn) putting someone in prison for expressing views on a historical event that happened 60 years ago. What are views on hate speech in this country?
49 posted on 02/20/2006 10:13:41 AM PST by rcocean (Copyright is theft and loved by Hollywood socialists)
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To: Praxeus

dead on


50 posted on 02/20/2006 10:14:51 AM PST by satchmodog9 (Most people stand on the tracks and never even hear the train coming)
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To: sheltonmac

Read her post again. She's referring to the lawsuit Irving brought against Lipstadt in Britain.


51 posted on 02/20/2006 10:17:17 AM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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To: Petronski

Read the article again. I'm clearly referring to the criminal charges against him.


52 posted on 02/20/2006 10:20:30 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: Tarkin
No, the question is, what makes the Holocaust so special?

It always comes down to this. What makes those damn Jews think they are so special that "their" genocide gets all the ink.

What Makes the Holocaust Unique...

"The "Final Solution" was designed to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child. The only Jews who would have conceivably survived had Hitler been victorious were those who somehow escaped discovery by the Nazis.

Jewish birth (actually mere evidence of "Jewish blood") was sufficient to warrant the punishment of death. Fackenheim notes that this feature distinguished Jews from Poles and Russians who were killed because there were too many of them, and from "Aryans" who were not singled out unless they chose to single themselves out. With the possible exception of Gypsies, he adds, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing.

The extermination of the Jews had no political or economic justification. It was not a means to any end; it was an end in itself. The killing of Jews was not considered just a part of the war effort, but equal to it; thus, resources that could have been used in the war were diverted instead to the program of extermination.

The people who carried out the "Final Solution" were primarily average citizens. Fackenheim calls them "ordinary job holders with an extraordinary job." They were not perverts or sadists. "The tone-setters," he says, "were ordinary idealists, except that their ideals were torture and murder." Someone else once wrote that Germany was the model of civilized society. What was perverse, then, was that the Germans could work all day in the concentration camps and then go home and read Schiller and Goethe while listening to Beethoven."

53 posted on 02/20/2006 10:24:08 AM PST by veronica ("A person needs a sense of mission like the air he breathes...")
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To: sheltonmac

And she in that post, she was not.


54 posted on 02/20/2006 10:26:53 AM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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To: veronica

Sorry, but you're nuts. No opinion about history should be criminalized. The fact that they are throwing a man in prison for holding a stupid and unpopular opinion is far more disgusting than the opinion itself.


55 posted on 02/20/2006 10:32:36 AM PST by Junior_G
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To: rcocean
Again, there is much more to Holocaust denial than making points about history. The Deniers' Real Goal...

What are (your) views on hate speech in this country?

Deport Holocaust deniers, Islamofascists who incite against the US, and prosecute people like Cindy Sheehan and Al Gore, who incite against the US on foreign soil, for starters. We are at war for God's sake.

56 posted on 02/20/2006 10:34:11 AM PST by veronica ("A person needs a sense of mission like the air he breathes...")
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To: Petronski; veronica

So? I was already talking about the criminal charges. That's what the article is about. That what started this thread. Veronica pointed out that he lost his lawsuit (as if that has anything to do with the discussion) and then said, "Nobody went after him." The guy was subsequently slapped with criminal charges and has now been sentenced to jail. I'm just pointing out that someone did indeed go after him.


57 posted on 02/20/2006 10:36:16 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: sheltonmac

He broke the law in Austria. And he had to know he was breaking it when he did. So there ya' go.


58 posted on 02/20/2006 10:37:57 AM PST by veronica ("A person needs a sense of mission like the air he breathes...")
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To: veronica; Tarkin
No, the question is, what makes the Holocaust so special?...It always comes down to this. What makes those damn Jews think they are so special that "their" genocide gets all the ink.

You're right, that's a major factor. Though I generally think prosecuting things like this is a mistake, there's another major difference as well. To a large extend, the nations in which communist atrocities occured, and their populace, are disinterested. For example, the reason that communists who committed atrocities in the Soviet Union aren't prosecuted, and that their crimes are forgotten lies in those nations, not in the US and not in the Jewish community.

59 posted on 02/20/2006 10:39:06 AM PST by SJackson (There is but one language which can be held to these people, and this is terror, William Eaton)
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To: aculeus

Man, the guy is an idiot, but to make him sit their and deny what he believes like some Russian purge trial is scary.


60 posted on 02/20/2006 10:39:23 AM PST by Casloy
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