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To: Non-Sequitur; Casloy; All
From Abe Lincoln own mouth in 1848:

"Any people any where, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much territory as they inhabit."



It can be argued that the legal basis for secession could be found it the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution. That amendment says that any power not delegated to the federal government by the states, and not prohibited to the states by the Constitution, remained a right of the states or the people. The Constitution doesn't say anything specific on secession and the states never delegated to the federal government any power to suppress secession. So secession remained a reserved right of the states. This is partly why President Buchanan all the first 7 states to leave in peace.

Some may recall that Virginia, New York and Rhode Island included a clause in their ratifications of the Constitution that permitted them to withdraw from the Union if the new government should become oppressive in their eyes. It was for this reason that they joined the Union. Virginia citied this when it seceded in 1861. Also since the Constitution is based on the concept of co-equally and no state can have more rights than another, the right of secession citied by these 3 states must extend equally to all states.

The list of people who supported the principle that the American states had the legal right to secede is impressive. Thomas Jefferson, John Quincy Adams, William Lloyd Garrison, William Rawle, and Alexis de Tocqueville. Also that the New England states threated secession several times in the early 1800's. The legitimacy of secession had been taked for granted in all parts of the country for years by the time of the "Civil War."

Now you can have your a** back.
263 posted on 02/06/2006 8:36:50 PM PST by libertarianben (Looking for sanity and his hard to find cousin common sense)
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To: libertarianben
Now you can have your a** back.

Oh so you think you just handed by ass to me with that BS cut and paste? You do have a very high opinion of yourself, don't you?

266 posted on 02/07/2006 3:57:56 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: libertarianben
Also since the Constitution is based on the concept of co-equally and no state can have more rights than another, the right of secession citied by these 3 states must extend equally to all states.

If that particular piece of twisted logic is true, then shouldn't that mean that all states must be able to join the union in the same manner as the original 13? All they had to do was ratify the Consitution, the 37 states that followed had to be admitted by the other states. Isn't that wrong? Aren't they entitiled to join in the same manner as the others?

Also, since you like to toss around names if not quotes, here's a name and a quote for you. James Madison suggested that the belief that the states had the right to withdraw at will from the Union must also mean that a state can be expelled from the Union by the other states against it's will. Why wouldn't this be correct?

268 posted on 02/07/2006 4:21:05 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: libertarianben
"Any people any where, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right... "

Lincoln's talking about the Right of Rebellion, a natural right, not a Constitutional right. The idea goes back at least to Locke, if not further. And when Lincoln says "Any people any where" he could just as easily be talking about slaves in the south. Would you argue that they had a Constitutional right to revolt? Did the Whiskey Rebels? Note that the Constitution talks about suppressing insurrections. How could the government do that if, constitutionally, everyone has a right to "rise up and shake off the existing government"?

Note also the phrase "having the power." The south didn't. Bad luck, that.

272 posted on 02/07/2006 9:51:36 AM PST by Heyworth ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: libertarianben
It can be argued that the legal basis for secession could be found it the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution.

I find it beyond absurd that you use the Constitution to justify doing away with the Constitution. Essentially, any state which seceded was robbing each and every citizen of that state the protection of the constitution. The Bill of Rights is not about what the majority wants, the Bill of Rights is about the rights of the individual protected against any government be it local or federal. A State can't censor a newspaper nor close down a church even if everyone in the State votes to do so. The states which seceded were essentially removing their citizens from the protection of the Constitution. As to the Lincoln quote, it's getting very tired and you probably ought to read something other than anti-Lincoln books to get your history. That sentiment was a common one, expressed most distinctly by Jefferson and meant to apply to unelected governments which ruled without the consent of the governed. The fact the South lost the election of 1861 was not exactly what Jefferson or Lincoln had in mind.

Now you can have your a** back.

Oh, grow up! This isn't a playground, you infantile nitwit.

300 posted on 02/07/2006 4:58:49 PM PST by Casloy
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