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Is ID science or religion?
antievolution.org ^ | Prof. Phillip E. Johnson

Posted on 01/25/2006 9:27:55 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez

Prof. Johnson is considered to be the father of the Intelligent Design movement. What follows is known as The Wedge Strategy, authored by Johnson.

In the words of the recognized father of the ID movement...ID is religion.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: creationisminadress; crevolist; fakescience; goddooditamen; idjunkscience; intelligentdesign; pseudoscience
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
He even miss identified his finches
181 posted on 01/26/2006 12:33:28 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Dead Dog

"He even miss identified his finches."

So? Is that the best you can do? He wasn't a bird expert. MOST naturalists would have misidentified them too. Show him a beetle and he would have been in his element.


182 posted on 01/26/2006 12:35:17 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
You're kneejerking to the defense of your prophet. Which is a bit weird. Charles Darwin was revolutionary, but far from infallible...he didn't need to be.

The theory of evolution is what it is, regardless of Darwin's personal failings.
183 posted on 01/26/2006 12:52:30 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Dead Dog
"You're kneejerking to the defense of your prophet."

I am defending a man against your ignorant picture of him.

"Charles Darwin was revolutionary, but far from infallible...he didn't need to be."

I never said he was infallible. I said he was an excellent naturalist, which was the opinion of the creationist naturalists he communicated with before he even published anything about evolution.

" The theory of evolution is what it is, regardless of Darwin's personal failings."

But you haven't shown any of these *failings*, other than the fact he wasn't perfect, which I never said or implied he was. He was well respected for his work as a naturalist well before the world heard anything about "The Origin Of Species".
184 posted on 01/26/2006 12:57:21 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I believe in Creation and evolution because I don't see a conflict between the two.

Then maybe you can explain the origin of life for us. Evolutionists admit they do not have an answer for this very basic question. Perhaps you are different.

If you see no conflict, then you should have no problem with a mere mention of ID in schools.

185 posted on 01/26/2006 1:03:43 PM PST by connectthedots
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To: connectthedots

That is what I don't get. Why such rabid pushback on ID, which simply challanges unguided evolution (a theory) on a statistical basis.


186 posted on 01/26/2006 1:05:48 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: WildHorseCrash

PH usually says he does it for the lurkers. I don't disagree, but I don't think there are too many lurkers out there who need help.

I ignore the hard core cases and look for the "softer" ones, where an intelligent discourse may have some impact. Unfortunately the "virtual ignore" list is quite long.

It is very difficult for me to accept that people who are purposely ignorant can sleep at night, but I am apparently wrong.


187 posted on 01/26/2006 1:09:58 PM PST by furball4paws (Awful Offal)
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To: Dead Dog
Why such rabid pushback on ID, which simply challanges unguided evolution (a theory) on a statistical basis.

Because people are pushing this conjecture based upon a "statistical" challenge founded in faulty premises as a scientific theory when it is not.
188 posted on 01/26/2006 1:10:38 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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Fortunately, there are SOME governments who have no fear of teaching the controversy.
189 posted on 01/26/2006 1:15:31 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: your mind)
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To: connectthedots
"Then maybe you can explain the origin of life for us."

God.

"Evolutionists admit they do not have an answer for this very basic question."

Nor do they attempt to answer that question...the word evolution itself means change after creation. As scientists, in order to answer that question, they would need physical proof of the existence of God. Something that, in common with Creationists, they lack.

Belief in God isn't called "faith" because there's proof of it.

190 posted on 01/26/2006 1:24:38 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: furball4paws
I don't think there are too many lurkers out there who need help.

My personal opinion is that a thread can have a lot of lurkers during the first 50 posts. Some may plow through the first 100, but not that many. That's why I usually don't deploy the ping list if I learn of a thread after it's past that point. After 100 posts, it's just too late to argue with a creationist, or even to post a link with the correct information. The lurkers aren't there to benefit, and for sure the creationist won't benefit. But sometimes I do it.

191 posted on 01/26/2006 1:28:43 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Ichneumon
"Advocates of "absolute moral truth" (or "absolute truth" or "absolute morality", etc.) never seem to notice that people's idea of "absolute" [whatever] is actually very *relative* to what holy book they decide to follow, or which sect's interpretation they adopt.

LOL. If I wasn't laughing so hard I'd be able to answer your post. :^)

OK. OK. I've stopped... I think.
Man! When you are correct you are really correct!

192 posted on 01/26/2006 1:33:12 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: PatrickHenry; furball4paws

Well, you do know that I am mainly a lurker on these Evo/Creo/ID threads...and I read each and every post, no matter how long the thread goes on...I would have to imagine, that if I take the time to read everything, that other lurkers do as well...

For what it is worth, we lurkers do appreciate the posts from everyone, regardless of their position on this subject...


193 posted on 01/26/2006 1:43:47 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: Dead Dog
Darwin was a crappy naturalist, a terrible student

Agreed that Darwin's theory needs to be evaluated on its own merits (not on Darwin's personal qualities or character) and I would go along with Darwin as a mediocre student at best... But the claim that he was a "crappy naturalist" is extraordinary and unaccountable.

DARWIN WAS AN ABSOLUTELY FIRST RATE SCIENTIST, even before and apart from his work on evolution. Good Lord, his monographs on Cirripidae (sp? that is Barnacles) are still standard references to this very day. Granted that works in systematics tend to be longer lived, but this is still remarkable. Also (e.g. in light of the extensive and meticulous dissections involved) indicative of Darwin's strong work ethic and high productivity. He made numerous original discoveries and reorganized the taxonomy of the entire group (with little subsequent change to date). Even before he did much research or was recognized the quality and extent of his collections during the Beagle voyage were remarkable. And still his first original theories (on the formation of coral reefs and atolls) were published, and began to establish his reputation as a geologist, even before he returned!

Then there's the staggering number, extent and care of his experiments. Etc. One could go on and on (even without mentioning evolution).

194 posted on 01/26/2006 1:48:51 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: andysandmikesmom
I am mainly a lurker on these Evo/Creo/ID threads...

Not really. You're registered on this website. You've taken the trouble to get on the ping list. You do post from time to time (more than most on the ping list, actually). You ain't no lurker. When I think of a lurker, I'm thinking of people we never hear from, and who may not even be registered to post. There's a lot of them.

195 posted on 01/26/2006 1:48:59 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: narby
That the 15 years of science bashing on the environmental front have now spread to bashing all of science

This is a major claim, but not accurate at all.

196 posted on 01/26/2006 1:53:47 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: Dead Dog
He even miss identified his finches

True, but in general his labeling of specimens was quite good. And the extent of the collections he made were HUGE. Almost unbelievable for one man (albeit with servant most of the time). Just the strenous physical aspects involved -- climbing up and down sheer Andean peaks, manually pulling supply barges up South American rivers, galloping across the Pampas with half wild gauchos, carrying up to 70 lbs of water on trips to the interior of islands in the Galapagos, etc, etc, etc... It's almost unconceivable to a modern man what Darwin (happily and with little thought) endured making his collections.

Besides, Darwin proved his acumen when he got home. He know exactly who to give his finches, and other birds to work up in England, and thereby got the indenifications corrected almost immediately.

197 posted on 01/26/2006 1:57:17 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Physicist
Barely relevant, since in order for astrology to be true, much of what we believe we know about physics in general would have to be revised anyway.

I don't think astrology is developed in any way to make that true. Astrology simply uses symbols of astronomy, constellations, as names for things completely unrelated to anything having to do with physics, astrophysics or astronomy.

Astrology would better be made analogy with psychology for what astrology tries to explain.

Creation science, young earth belief, is actually more relevant to astronomy and astrophysic in being directly opposed. Creation scientists have their own geologists and astrophysicists who ostensibly provide evidence that the universe is young etc...

198 posted on 01/26/2006 1:57:44 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: furball4paws
It is very difficult for me to accept that people who are purposely ignorant can sleep at night, but I am apparently wrong.

I agree completely. But, the longer I'm here, the more I find that it may be futile to think that any good can come of it. They're going to remain ignorant, and take down people's opinion of conservatives and Republicans with them.

A few weeks ago, a woman I work with found out I'm a Republican and in the conversation I mentioned I was going to NYC to see the Darwin exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History (I highly recommend it, by the way), and she actually had to ask whether I was "anti-Darwin." I had to explain that, no, I am not one of those people.

Point being, that to the great moderate, undecided middle, "conservative" and "Republican" is becoming synonymous with "anti-evolution" and, therefore, "anti-science." That's bad news. I guess, if nothing else, posting here shows that not all conservatives and Republicans have this blind spot to rationalism in our thinking.

199 posted on 01/26/2006 2:01:57 PM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: PatrickHenry

Ah, I see what you mean now..."You ain't no lurker", is a fine compliment, coming from you..I guess, what I should have said, is that I lurk much of the time, and post once in a while...

But I still think my original point is reasonable, that there may be many, many true lurkers, who nonetheless, read all the posts on these threads...given the nature of how often these threads can turn really 'ugly', I can understand, why people may be hesitant to post, but just prefer to remain lurking...and learning...


200 posted on 01/26/2006 2:03:08 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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