Dear RFEngineer,
An honest, non-tendentious history of the centuries after the Reformation will admit that there were both Catholics and Protestants (and Islamics and others) aplenty who tried to use the power of the state to coerce consciences.
"However, Our Catholic Brothers were hardly a shining example."
However, I don't recall anyone making the argument. Having been caught in a rather ludicrous argument, you're now deflecting. ;-)
"Virginia had an 'official' religion, too."
Yes, and interestingly, it WASN'T Catholicism, now was it?
And frankly, I don't find objectionable that the state of Virginia had an established religion, even though it wasn't Catholicism.
"But by the time the Constitution was drafted and signed in 1789 religious zealotry of all kinds was suppressed,..."
No, that's not at all true. It was illegal to say Catholic Mass in Virginia into the first part of 19th century. Apparently, the Protestants who ran Virginia took their sweet time "suppressing religious zealotry."
As I said, I don't oppose established religions. However, I DO oppose the coercion of conscience forced on us Catholics, not by favoring a particular Protestant sect in the state of Virginia, but by BANNING the Catholic Mass in Virginia (and Maryland - again, at the hands of Protestants).
In Maryland, the "supression of religious zealotry," and the provision of fundamental rights to freedom of conscience were actually promoted first and foremost by,... ahem..., Catholics.
"...primarily by other Protestants,..."
You mean like all the Protestants who passed Blaine Amendments to discriminate against Catholics in large swaths of the United States? A hundred years and more AFTER the adoption of the Constitution?
"That never would have been sanctioned by Rome - and history is replete with examples of that."
Well, not quite. Although the Catholic Church doesn't oppose established religions, the Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught doctrinally against the coercion of consciences.
Plenty of both Protestants and Catholics have violated that doctrine, but it's really much more of a mixed bag than you seem to think. Going back to Europe, there were countries with state-established Catholicism, as well as countries with state-established Protestantism, of different flavors and varieties. State-established Protestant religions flourised throughout northern Europe, and indeed, state-established Protestant religions still exist in Britain, Scandinavia, and other places.
In Great Britain, for centuries, far beyond mere state-establishment of Protestantism, it was illegal to say Catholic Mass. EVEN TO THIS DAY, the United Kingdom discriminates against Catholics. So much for "Protestant religious freedom."
And I hate to tell you, but historically, the Pilgrims weren't fleeing from CATHOLIC oppressors, but rather from PROTESTANT oppressors.
sitetest
"However, I don't recall anyone making the argument. Having been caught in a rather ludicrous argument, you're now deflecting. ;-) "
I think you made the argument to my point.
Regarding Virginia's state religion: "Yes, and interestingly, it WASN'T Catholicism, now was it?"
I never said it was. My point was not that zealotry or the protestant kind is better than the catholic kind......that the matters of the state should be seperate from matters of religion.
"An honest, non-tendentious history of the centuries after the Reformation will admit that there were both Catholics and Protestants (and Islamics and others) aplenty who tried to use the power of the state to coerce consciences. "
Exactly correct. Catholicism, the administrator and political bureaucracy of the state was a great civilizing influence but around the time of the reformation was a disaster - creating the opening for Protestantism. The politics of state and religion no longer functioned together. That's one reason why Protestantism flourished, and one reason why Protestants were kicked out of some of the best countries in Europe to form the USA.
"Apparently, the Protestants who ran Virginia took their sweet time "suppressing religious zealotry." " - Do you have a citation for this? The statute guaranteeing religious freedom was in place at the end of the 18th century - there's even a monument to it.
"You mean like all the Protestants who passed Blaine Amendments to discriminate against Catholics in large swaths of the United States? A hundred years and more AFTER the adoption of the Constitution? "
Blaine amendments - maybe the were originally designed to discriminate against Catholics - I just haven't read up on them, so I believe you.....(maybe you don't know, but some people to this day don't like Catholics - just because) But today, my understanding is that the Blaine Amendment progeny cut across demoninations, not just affecting Catholics.
"State-established Protestant religions flourised throughout northern Europe, and indeed, state-established Protestant religions still exist in Britain, Scandinavia, and other places"
I'm not arguing this.....I'm just saying that state-sponsored religion, and theocracy in general is always a bad idea.
"So much for "Protestant religious freedom.""
I was talking about the US....would you dispute that you have religious freedom (assuming you are Catholic)?
Protestants in the US got kicked out of both Catholic and Protestant Europe. That is one reason why they revered freedom of religion and that is reflected in our Constitution. I didn't blame Catholicism for that.....