Posted on 12/16/2005 10:58:09 AM PST by new yorker 77
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Larry Craig – Idaho
Phone: (202) 224-2752
Email: http://craig.senate.gov/email/
Website: http://craig.senate.gov/
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Chuck Hagel – Nebraska
Phone: (202) 224-4224
Email: http://hagel.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home
Website: http://hagel.senate.gov/
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Lisa Murkowski – Alaska
Phone: (202) 224-6665
Email: http://murkowski.senate.gov/contact.cfm
Website: http://murkowski.senate.gov
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John Sununu – New Hampshire
Phone: (202) 224-2841
Email: http://www.sununu.senate.gov/webform.html
Website: http://sununu.senate.gov/
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Frist also voted against it in order to keep the option open to hold another future cloture vote.
Oh Ya! quit drinking the kool-aid!
At issue for gun owners is a provision that would allow the FBI to obtain "firearms sales records." The bill extends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act and allows agents of the federal government to get "firearms sales records" which, in their opinion, are relevant to investigating terrorism.
These records would be obtained from gun dealers, who are required by law to keep the gun purchase records (4473 forms). Thus, an anti-gun administration could then easily compile gun owner registration lists -- an enterprise which has often been a prelude to gun confiscation.
If I were Murkowski, I might consider holding out to get ANWR signed.
That is only one aspect of this holdup and the discussion of it. There are some complaining that we live in a "police state" others are complaining about warrants. One intelligent poster even listed all the provisions which the RATS are fighting over.
And there could be no bigger fool than a person believing that the RATS are holding this up (with the four Useful Idiots) because of concern about Second Amendment rights.
Hence your objection is completely unwarranted and your logic invalid. Do you think we should get rid of nuclear weapons because of the potential election of potential abusers of them?
"Often"? Only in your imagination. How many gun confiscations have there been throughout the world?
And there could be no bigger fool than a person believing that the RATS are holding this up (with the four Useful Idiots) because of concern about Second Amendment rights.
This is about protecting the Bill of RIGHTS, which is entirely sufficient reason to send it back to the conference committee. I don't give a crap what the Slave Party wants.
Hence your objection is completely unwarranted and your logic invalid. Do you think we should get rid of nuclear weapons because of the potential election of potential abusers of them?
Totally non-seqitur. Stick to the topic of the thread and you won't make such a fool of yourself.
Who cares why the Dems are holding it up? Sen. Craig is holding it up pending removal of the gun-grabbing provisions. Wouldn't you agree that the best case scenario would be for the good parts of the PATRIOT Act to be renewed and the anti-gun parts rejected?
This thread has several distinct topics as I pointed out to you earlier.
Your refusal to answer the question clearly shows that your logic is invalid and dishonest.
That shows the comment was wrong. Registration COULD be used to assist confiscation though it has rarely been done.
I see little to fear in any of the Patriot Act but much to fear in allowing it to be phased out.
There is not going to be any confiscations. Even the RATS have realized that gun grabbing does not gain them any votes. It is a dead issue.
I disagree. People in general are dumb. All it will take is a massive shooting worse than Columbine and gun control will become popular amongst the uninformed once again.
There is no evidence of there being any resurrection of gg sentiments. And there have been some bad ones since then.
Though I do agree people are dumb and easily manipulated by the Treason Media.
I'm glad we agree there. People sometimes get pissed when I mention that people, in general, are pretty dumb. And by "dumb", I don't mean that they posses low IQ's, simply that they cannot think for themselves, not only when it comes to the news, but in popular culture as well.
A very merry Christmas to you and yours.
People are too lazy to get into things deeply and want to think the best of everyone. How many times are you trying to have a discussion and after a few minutes the eyes start to glaze over and they change the subject or just refuse to talk about it anymore?
That is the great thing about FR you can actually find someone willing to carry on a serious discussion about serious issues. And we don't have to agree all the time in order to do so.
Merry CHRISTmas to you and yours as well.
No, it doesn't.
Your refusal to answer the question clearly shows that your logic is invalid and dishonest.
ROTFLMAO!!! You haven't offered ONE shred of evidence that we need to trash the Second Amendment in order to have the PATRIOT Act renewed this very minute, especially when the Congress is already setting up to amend it in conference committee.
Keep posting. You'll be advertising your reputation as an enemy of the principals for which so many honorable Americans have given their lives.
You went well beyond that. I'll quote you verbatim:
What is it that you are doing that would make anyone suspicious of your "activities"?I think that comment speaks for itself in a thread where government collection of Internet activity between Americans is at stake. The minute I disagreed with you regarding homeland security measures, you tried to divert attention onto your debating opponent. You've identified exactly why the government should never be given the benefit of the doubt in these matters. We can never rely on its powers not to be abused, especially when those who have the temporary reins of power might misuse government authority to disadvantage their political opponents.
Unlike you I acknowledge that the fact that the "loopholes", as you call them, exist makes everyone more vigilant about their not being abused.
This is a simplistic and naive viewpoint couched in an unflinching faith in government power that you should seriously reconsider. Our founding fathers established the inter-branch, speech (press), and firearms checks on government power precisely because they didn't trust any government power not to be abused.
...your "freedoms" are nothing but a shield for their perfidy.
That's a very interesting way to describe the Constitution. It's one of the risks we take here in America. Liberty comes fraught with danger and responsibility. Sure, you can have an authoritarian state that sees and knows all; once you accept that, you have the Orwellian situation described in 1984. We should all do our part to resist that. What's more, you have zero proof that spying on private communications among American citizens inside our country offers you the security required. It doesn't. What it does do is generate billions of bits of information about ordinary people. Easily misused and abused bits. It also becomes an archival problem! How do you secure all of that information? It's impossible. Think! You have no idea how to protect data collected about you and your business partners, that could be stolen and spread all over the Internet by this or that malfeasant activist. This isn't just about protecting me, it's about protecting you, and your family. Government authority misused is a much greater danger than individual terrorist attacks, most of which could be prevented if we would just deport the Islamic threat before it strikes again. Use some sense and wisdom: get your priorities straight.
Instead of retorting with snide remarks you could have tried to demonstrate precise answers to my questions, which came from the substance of the provisions that will lapse and simply asked what your objections were to each of those provisions.
I gave you a list of responses, and you ignored them or dismissed them. I think library and bookstore data collection is wrong. I think one-party Internet and cellular taps are wrong. Look at Senator Larry Craig's objections to the firearms purchase data. Remember that confiscation is always on the other side of registration, and that's what sharing this data among agencies is tantamount to: firearms registration nationwide. If you do not love and defend our second amendment rights yet, you should study more about them before you write them off. Furthermore, you should find out why second amendment guardians are concerned about nationwide registration before you write them off yourself. What's more, you should be more understanding of others who are concerned about issues of freedom. How can you dismiss what many of your fellow citizens are worried about? It's not really up to you to decide what is acceptable for others. We ARE worried about the PA. We HAVE reasons. You should be more patient with those Americans who are worried about freedoms that don't seem to concern you personally. THAT is part of being a good citizen: going the second mile to understand why others are worried about this or that liberty. We should all listen to each other when it comes to any concerns about liberty. Think about it a little!
Meanwhile, as you're trying to persuade others to come around to your point of view about spying on Americans, try not to insinuate that they need to be spied on. It really hurts your argument.
Apparently ideological blindness does not allow you to see the different subjects discussed on this thread. No shock there considering your fantasies about the "trashing" of the second amendment probably could only be controlled with medication.
Just because your lawn ain't being mowed, doesn't mean the blades ain't a-whirlin.
Yes we do.
Lawns or no, blades or no. We do not live in a police state and anyone claiming that simply does not know what a police state is.
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