Ping
In the U.S., Darwin still needs defending
It makes as much sense as a quadriplegic dog skier...
It makes as much sense as a quadriplegic dog skier...
Thanks for a great new tagline!
How does he know that the workings of physics are "unintended," particularly when we speak of "the laws of physics"? I don't know of any un-authored laws.
Dawkins makes an a priori assumption, which is the opposite of the a posteriori "scientific method."
Don't tell Cher.
Hoyle's comments were made in light of the laws of physical Chemistry and the organic chemicals required for even the simplest one-celled organisms to exist. You can't get selection going until you get self-replicating systems with the potential to mutate.
Dawkins plays some games with just-so stories about clays being the carriers for these complex organics without ever addressing the underlying chemical problems.
Regarding complexity, he would do well to read Dembski's mathematical treaments of complexity and specified complexity. At least Dembski gives an empirical treatment of the subject instead of Dawkin's just-so comment of "Well, just give it enough time and it will happen, I mean, look around. We're here, so it must have happened!"
However, having read Dawkins I find that he is more an idealogue than a scientist. He's a militant, evangelistic atheist and wields evolutionary theory as a sword to slay the religious.
The rumbling of the paradigm shift continues. It will be interesting to see how loud it gets before the shift finally happens.
Michael Denton, author of "Evolution, a Theory in Crisis, has written a new book, "Nature's Destiny," on intelligent Design. In it he says this:
"it is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science - that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended ultimately in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes.This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school". According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving the suspension of natural law.
Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world - that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies."
Behe, the chief defence witness at Dover, has this to say about evolution:
I didn't intend to "dismiss" the fossil record--how could I "dismiss" it? In fact I mention it mostly to say that it can't tell us whether or not biochemical systems evolved by a Darwinian mechanism. My book concentrates entirely on Darwin's mechanism, and simply takes for granted common descent.
Nearly all the major players in the ID game accept common descent, even if they quibble over details of mechanism.
Or unless, of course, that Designer has always been.
September 12, 2005 Clash in Cambridge
Science and religion seem as antagonistic as ever
By John Horgan
In the very first lecture of the Templeton-Cambridge Journalism Fellowship in June, a University of Cambridge biologist assured the 10 journalists in his audience that science and religion have gotten along much better, historically, than is commonly believed. After all, scientific pioneers such as Kepler, Newton, Boyle and even Galileo were all devout Christians; Galileo's run-in with the Church was really a spat between two different versions of Catholicism. The notion that science and religion have always butted heads is "fallacious," declared Denis Alexander, who is, not coincidentally, a Christian. Other lecturers, who included four agnostics, a Jew, a deist and 11 Christians, also saw no unbridgeable chasm between science and their faith.
As the two-week meeting unfolded, however, conflict kept disrupting this peaceable kingdom. Lecturers and journalists argued over a host of questions: Without religion, would humanity descend into moral chaos? Are scientific claims in some sense as unprovable as religious ones? Can prayers heal, and if so, is that evidence of the placebo effect or of God's helping hand? Why does God seem to help some people and ignore others? By the end of the conference, the gulf between science and religion--or at least Christianity--seemed as wide as ever.
Take the exchange between biologists Simon Conway Morris of Cambridge and Richard Dawkins of the University of Oxford. Morris contended that intelligence is not a freak occurrence but a recurring theme in evolution, appearing in dolphins, parrots and crows as well as in primates. He speculated that any of these species might be capable of discovering God, but we had help--from Christ, whom God sent to Earth for our benefit. Dawkins, by far the most antireligious lecturer, praised Morris's evolutionary views but called his Christianity "gratuitous." Morris retorted that he found Dawkins's atheism "archaic" and asserted that the resurrection and other miracles attributed to Christ were "historically verifiable." After more give-and-take, Morris, crossing his arms tightly across his chest, grumbled, "I'm not sure this conversation can go any further."
Dawkins also challenged the faith of physicist John Barrow, an Anglican. Like several other speakers, Barrow emphasized how extraordinarily "fine-tuned" the universe is for our existence. Why not just accept that fine-tuning as a fact of nature? Dawkins asked. Why do you want to explain it with God? "For the same reason you don't want to," Barrow responded drily. Everyone laughed except Dawkins, who protested, "That's not an answer!"
Disagreement divided believers as well. Physicist John Polkinghorne, a winner of the $1.4-million Templeton Prize, given annually to those who "advance spiritual matters," contended that physicists' understanding of causality is "patchy" and hence allows for a God who answers prayers and carries out the occasional miracle, such as parting the Red Sea. Another physicist and Templeton Prize winner, Paul Davies, discerned tentative evidence of design in the laws of nature but added, "As a physicist, I feel very uncomfortable with a God who intervenes" in human affairs.
Tension was evident not only between speakers but also within individual minds. Nancey Murphy, a philosopher at the Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., described herself as a materialist who does not view the soul as a "spirit" separate from the body. Yet she believes in phenomena that many scientists might find hard to swallow, such as the resurrection of Christ and, at the end of time, of all humans. When a journalist pressed her to explain how resurrection might work, Murphy acknowledged that at times the discussion between science and religion "breaks down" because they involve "incommensurable schemes" for understanding reality.
Peter Lipton, a Cambridge philosopher, spoke of his struggle to be a practicing Jew in spite of his lack of belief in a supernatural God. "I stand in my synagogue and pray to God and have an intense relationship with God, and yet I don't believe in God," Lipton confessed with a rueful grin. He compared his religious experience with that of someone who gets pleasure and meaning from a novel even though he knows it is not literally true. "Are you having your cake and eating it, too?" asked journalism fellow Shankar Vedantam of the Washington Post. "I'm certainly trying to," Lipton replied.
Half the journalists considered themselves religious, at least when the fellowship began. By the end, the infidels were all holding firm, while at least one believer's faith was wobbling because of the arguments of Dawkins.
Whether the program was all that its sponsor, the Templeton Foundation, hoped for is unclear. Created by investor Sir John Templeton in 1987, the foundation has spent $225 million on publications, conferences and other programs aimed at finding common ground between science and religion. The participants here may not have found that common ground, but they all agreed that spending two weeks on the River Cam pondering the meaning of life--or lack thereof--was jolly good fun.
1) an unbearable pompous ass
2) not nearly as bright as he thinks he is
3) president of a worldwide Richard Dawkins fan club (one member)
4) victim of the idea that scientific debate consists of sitting in the corner shrieking "all of the smart people are over here with us, and you are an idiot if you aren't with the smart people over here with us...., and oh yeah, what you say is wrong, and I don't have to prove it because all the smart people already believe it (you blithering idiot)!
I did research for a while with a Brit, and they can have an icy wit sometimes, but Dawkins is just an asswipe.
I think he is Carl Sagan's separated at birth twin.
Mega Barf alert.
Well, Mr. Dawkins, is there objective truth or is everything a matter of perception ? If the latter why do you insist so vigorously on the truth of what you say?
The thought occurs to me, snarks, that Dawkins never accounts for the origins of the "unaided" laws of physics. I guess that's a question an atheist simply refuses to ask. He's happy enough to start, not from the beginning, but from Step 2....
If "matter" follows laws, then in what way is mimicry involved? What is being mimicked?
Thanks for the post!
ping