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Introduction: The Illusion of Design [Richard Dawkins]
Natural History Magazine ^ | November 2005 | Richard Dawkins

Posted on 12/07/2005 3:31:28 AM PST by snarks_when_bored

click here to read article


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To: grey_whiskers
Thank you so very much for your insights! I greatly appreciate the excerpt of Aquinas' Shorter Summa and especially this observation:

Brings to mind a certain Deity whose followers always seem to get wrapped up in these crevo threads...

"Before Abraham was, I AM"

Indeed.

801 posted on 12/09/2005 10:55:26 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Virginia-American
Thank you for your reply! Physical laws are among the guides to such systems.
802 posted on 12/09/2005 10:56:50 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for all of your excellent posts on this thread! They are treasures and very engaging. And there is soooo much I'd love to discuss, but I'm just too worn out and must call it a night. Sigh ...
803 posted on 12/09/2005 10:58:54 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Virginia-American
I was told Adm. Grace Hopper used that saying in a graduation speech at William and Mary.

Sigh. She did so much to get the DoD into high-end computing... :-)

804 posted on 12/09/2005 11:15:25 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

One thing's for certain. We'll all either blink off into oblivion or wake up face to face with God. We'll just have to see.


805 posted on 12/09/2005 11:21:18 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis)
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To: Alamo-Girl
There is no symmetry in the void. It cannot be observed, moved, rotated. It is null. There are no fields, no points, no space, no time in the void. No geometry, ergo no symmetry.

No Alamo-Girl, You are to nice. You are talking over a head not past one.

But to your post, even the human concept of a void fails.

Agree?

Wolf
806 posted on 12/09/2005 11:50:12 PM PST by RunningWolf
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[ Again, there are two basic worldviews concerning the physical realm. One sees the physical realm as three spatial dimensions evolving over time. The other sees the physical realm as four dimensions - three of space, one of time. There are many extensions of the second view for multiple spatial and temporal dimensions, e.g. string theory. ]

Thank You.. You didn't have to include this, in this way..
Us, paleo-science types appreciate it.. if there are more than ONE of us.. LoL..

Wonder what "speed" God transverses this Universe at.. Wonder if spiritually "speed" is an obsolete concept.. Just a thought.. In that case time might not be variable but speed may be.. Really Photons are Sooo slow.. too slow.. To maintain this Universe efficiently a much faster mode of transportation would be needed, much faster than light speed.. Human bodies couldn't do it.. I know I know.. I'm dreamin again.. I do that..

But I'm not kidding, mostly..

807 posted on 12/10/2005 3:24:41 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Thanks for the reply. However, I already knew these things. But the refresher is appreciated.


808 posted on 12/10/2005 5:29:11 AM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: AndrewC
That is a philosophy not a science.

Excuse me for confusing empiricism with science.

809 posted on 12/10/2005 6:01:34 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

Your argument makes alot of sense. so long as God's view of justice is the same as yours. however, your view is not the view presented by the Scriptures nor especially by the teachings of Christ. if it's all a fable (like all the virgins for the suicide bombers), then you're good. if it's not a fable and no sin (no matter how small or finite) can be in the presence of the living God, then you're in trouble. the real issue is what is the truth and, as the writer of the article which started this whole discussion stated: the unpalatability of a proposition has no bearing on its truth.


810 posted on 12/10/2005 6:40:57 AM PST by Snowbelt Man (ideas have consequences)
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To: js1138

"By the Leeks of Babylon, E.I.E.I.O,
There we sat, there, yea, we wept, E.I.E.I.O.
With a boo-hoo here, and a boo-hoo there,
....
By the Leeks of Babylon, E.I.E.I.OOOOO"


811 posted on 12/10/2005 6:40:58 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: RunningWolf
Thank you so very much for your encouragements!

But to your post, even the human concept of a void fails.

Truly, the human mind is limited and we mortals suffer from the "observer problem"; therefore, Spiritual revelation is more certain than any other type of knowledge. But those who have never experienced God's revelations in Jesus Christ, the indwelling Spirit, Scriptures and Creation cannot appreciate the difference or that certainty.

812 posted on 12/10/2005 7:22:56 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe; betty boop
Thank you so very much for your engaging post!

Wonder what "speed" God transverses this Universe at.. Wonder if spiritually "speed" is an obsolete concept.. Just a thought.. In that case time might not be variable but speed may be..

Being transcendent, God is not bound by anything "in" creation whether physical or spiritual.

You might find it interesting that some Jewish mystics do not see the firmament (Genesis 1) as a geometric barrier - here (physical) and there (spiritual). Rather, they see the "there" as "here" and the boundary between the two, the firmament, as the speed of light.

In that interpretation, the sense of physical reality is "slow motion".

813 posted on 12/10/2005 7:34:50 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: ml1954
Please accept my apology - I didn't intend to be didactic, but rather to make sure we were on the same page.
814 posted on 12/10/2005 7:37:14 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
[ Being transcendent, God is not bound by anything "in" creation whether physical or spiritual. ]

Like "We" are in "heaven".?..

815 posted on 12/10/2005 7:51:54 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
Like "We" are in "heaven".?..

If you are speaking of the Jewish mystic interpretation of the firmament, then yes, each person is alive in both the spiritual and physical sides of the firmament (both here and there) though he may not be aware of it. Thus a person may unknowingly already be (spiritually) an inhabitant of "heaven" or "hell".

Christians, however, are aware of being alive in timelessness while yet in the flesh:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

So yes, Jewish mysticism notwithstanding, as Christians you and I are both "in heaven".

I see physical death as a "weighing of the anchor". In your metaphor, it would be getting off the donkey. In the Jewish mystic interpretation, it would be a separation of body and spirit, so that the speed of light is no longer a boundary.

816 posted on 12/10/2005 8:32:44 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
Thanks for flagging me yesterday. I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond. Here's a bit from Wilhelmsen, Hilaire Belloc, No Alienated Man:
The ancient Arabs spoke of a creature having life in two worlds: his body was rooted in the earth, but his soul swept out across the horizons to a world beyond. Let us call him by his name: Man. This balance which is Man is a tension rarely maintained in the course of human existence.

Let us call the one who situates his destiny in this world, and who habituates his gaze to the things this side of the horizon, Aristotelian Man. Let us call the one who despises the limits of the horizons, and who contemplates the world beyond, Platonic Man.

This first alienation of man from himself was healed in the ancient world by the Incarnation. Aristotelian Man, like St. Thomas the Doubter, could put his fingers in the side of his Creator; and Platonic Man, like the mystic John, found the Word, but it was the Word made Flesh. Revelation restored to man the unity that was himself . . . This unity was achieved as a reality both personal and corporate for a period of time in that small segment of the globe known as Western Europe.

Human unity was gradually lost, and a new man came into being. This man ha his life neither in the rooted things of the world nor in a heaven beyond. Nor is he Christian Man, man reconciled to himself. This new man looks neither outward and above nor outward and round about him. He looks within, and attempts to find salvation by a penetration and purgation of the hidden depths of his own personality. This is Modern Man, man twice alienated from himself, and he has not yet found his soul. "Je est un autre," said Rimbaud. "I IS an Other." And yet the Other which he is, is shrouded in darkness; and it is in this crucifixion of himself that Modern Man has come to see, without knowing that he sees, the hidden irony of the Cross.

Rimbaud was to wreak his vengeance on this Other he could not find by denouncing poetry, and by turning to what consolations the sands of Africa and the keel of a slave ship could offer an alienated man. He was a forerunner of what has become the dominant motif of the Western soul as expressed in its literature: the Man of Guilt.

Guilt is the effect of estrangement; it follows on a renunciation, explicit or implicit, of some dimension of the human spirit which is essential to the integral perfection of man. This renunciation has nothing to do with asceticism, which is a discipline sanctified and defined by the Christian tradition, having as its goal the flowering of human existence. The ascetic artist who prunes away the irrelevant so that the end may be achieved. Alienation is altogether different. It is the renunciation of something without which the end cannot be. Hence, wherever you find this sense of guilt so preoccupying modern man, you find a rupturing of the human heart, a positive surrender of some value which is consubstantial with achieved, completed, personal perfection. Being cannot be mocked with impunity.


817 posted on 12/10/2005 8:48:36 AM PST by cornelis
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To: grey_whiskers

Belloc ping at #817.


818 posted on 12/10/2005 8:49:44 AM PST by cornelis
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To: js1138

This is especially true to Darwins crowd; they can call themselves anything they wish but it is still your basic atheistical approach to creation.
Scientists do define rules of true science but if they break their own rules it is forgiven. Yet they throw hissy fits to advocates of ID. They are afraid of exposure , an examination of their lies, misrepresentations, and lack of scientific vigor. Light always exposes the darkness of their illusions.


819 posted on 12/10/2005 9:06:19 AM PST by caffe (Hey, dems, you finally have an opportunity to vote!!!)
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To: caffe

But whether or not ID is science is the important issue


820 posted on 12/10/2005 9:11:38 AM PST by bobdsmith
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