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To: JSDude1

Israel DOES give citizenship to Christians, and Muslims as well. In fact there are both Christians and Muslims that have served in both the Israeli parliament and military

As for your claim that this is a "Christian" nation, the framers and the administration of John Adams seem to belie it throught he ratification of the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796:

Treaty of Tripoli


Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
Joel Barlow
U.S. Consul General of Algiers
Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY


"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."


The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).


24 posted on 12/06/2005 3:13:08 AM PST by jeltz25
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To: jeltz25; JSDude1; Alouette; Yehuda; Just mythoughts; goldstategop; neverdem; Inyokern; jocon307; ...
I cannot let that post (#24) go unchallenged, as it has on FR in the past, so listen up, everyone!

1. Joel Barlow was a diplomat. He would say anything to get the Barbary-ians to sign off on the treaty. It would be a personal crowning career achievement for him.

2. Barlow, as you stated, was a chaplain, then gave up his Chistian beliefs. Would a man that unstable and unsure of his own beliefs be a good judge whom you would choose to follow at any time in his life?

3. (Most importantly) The USA was willing to tell the Moslems (Musselmen) anything, even LIE (gasp!) to put an end to it.

For more background, verse yourself in Islam, and then some history. It would not have been possible for the Moslems to sign an agreement with Christians unless they had been given the assurance that we weren't really Christian.

They extracted a lie out of us, that's all.

This isn't worth the paper it was printed on, and guys like YOU have nothing else in all of our national archives that you can come up with. ;) (And everyone here KNOWS IT!)

This government--the national legislature and every state legislature--has opened its sessions with prayer. Constant references to G-d are made in our money, in public speeches, and at inaugural addresses. References to G-d are made in State of the Union addresses.

The very idea that men are born with "inalienable rights" stems from...what source? Where are those rights, and from Whom do we get them? We know we don't get them from government....

Where, above and beyond government, do we look to? Where have we always, as a nation, as a people, as Americans, made reference to when we say that our rights don't come from government, but from above it? We're talking about the Creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. The idea permeates the Constitution, public speeches, and thousands of court cases.

Our nation was founded by G-d fearing men. It could not have been estblished by any other kind. We owe them a great debt.

Sauron

42 posted on 12/06/2005 10:35:48 AM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: jeltz25

America ~WAS~ a Christian nation (granted with Rationalist underpinnings) which means that it was both a product of Christianity (ala the Reformation) ~or have you ever heard of the Puritains (..And they're not the only ones), and Rationalism..see John Locke (though he was ~BOTH~ a Christians and a Rationalist...)!

I too have run across this treaty and you will not get away with saying that this is "evidence" of America as not a Christian nation, Sauron is Correct, The only way that the Muslims would agree to stop attacking the United States, and to grant us equal trading rights was to say (..yes lie) that "America was not a Chistian nation", of which I do not condone (LYING)- I wish they had just kick the stuffing out of these Muslim priates instead of agreeing on wording that was ~not~ true.

AND so I was wrong about Israel granting citizenship to Christians (I did not believe that they still do that, but maybe they do..) I also know about they're Muslim Arab Legislators because they had an Arab population at independence in 1948, but maybe you are correct on that point that they do ~STILL~ allow Christians to become citizens? It really doesnt' matter, I was just pointing out how rare it is for a nation to grant minority religions protection to practice as they please. The only nations to do so that I can recally have been those based on Judeo-Christian values such as America, Brittain, and (probably Israel): THAT WAS MY POINT ;D!


59 posted on 12/06/2005 10:26:49 PM PST by JSDude1 (If we are not governed by God, we WILL be governed by Tyrants-William Penn..founder of Pennsylvania)
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