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Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design
The News Herald ^ | Nov 18, 2005 | NICOLE WINFIELD (AP)

Posted on 11/18/2005 10:14:11 AM PST by shooter223

VATICAN CITY (AP) -- The Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States.

The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges.

"Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science."

His comments were in line with his previous statements on "intelligent design" - whose supporters hold that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power.

(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: intelligentdesign; vatican
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To: Coyoteman
Amazing! You say MY judgement appears to be clouded... What did I write that led you to that conclusion? I suggest you were responding to your own imagination.

On another note, what are you attempting to illustrate with the pictures of various skulls? How accurate shall we say the dates are? What portion of 'evolution' do you say they support? Many people may agree on 'facts'. Their agreement does NOT, in and of itself, constitute truth. So now where shall we go?

41 posted on 11/18/2005 12:09:38 PM PST by 1_Of_We
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To: x5452
The problem is that evolution in the scientific sense isn't what's being taught in schools.

That problem is easily rectified with parental involvement in the child's life.

Besides, do you really want a Liberal teacher speaking to the subject of the Divine? Changing the subject does not change their bias.

42 posted on 11/18/2005 12:16:36 PM PST by Prime Choice (Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.)
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To: SoothingDave
"Only that such a thing is belief and not science."

Science is based on and inseparable from philosophy and natural faith.

"He only said ID was not science and should not be taught as such."

Math is also not science (at least not a natural science). Should we keep math out the science class too?

Evolutionists act like their version of reality is so self evident, we have to be blind not to see it. This is the worst kind of dogmatism, and has always served to slow the progress of science rather than enable it.

Great scientists appreciate the importance of epistemology.
43 posted on 11/18/2005 12:18:18 PM PST by unlearner
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To: x5452

They already have Genesis in hand. I would venture to suggest that for them, the question is not whether God created the universe and life; the question is how God created the universe and life.


44 posted on 11/18/2005 12:18:48 PM PST by megatherium (Hecho in China)
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To: Prime Choice

No it's not it's easily rectified with swift rulings in the favor of parents who notice the schools doing this.

Can't happen when it's illegal for parents to question curriculum.


45 posted on 11/18/2005 12:24:08 PM PST by x5452
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To: Diamond

1000bc ???
You obviously do not know your ancient history.
Egyptians' hieroglyphics go back 5000 years and beyond. The Sumarians left us 'cunniform' writing dating from 6000bc.
Go to the library and crack open some books on ancient history...or, try 'googling'.....
By the way.....much of the Hebrew Scriptures writings can be traced back to the " Epic of Gilgamesh"( 6000bc) ....( google)
Finally, do not swallow whole any Christian teaching when it purports to be "truth". What is truth for one is a lie for another.


46 posted on 11/18/2005 12:26:12 PM PST by Duffboy
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To: Antonello

Such natural explanations are more often than not philosophy of science and not science itself. The scientific method is not self-explanatory. I mentioned no "proofs" for the God of Revelation.

Philosophy is limited in what it can show: a First Mover, an Uncaused Cause, a Designer. This does not prove the God of Revelation. For that you need Faith. Faith tells us that the First Mover, the Uncaused Cause etc. is God, that is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Scriptures and Christianity.


47 posted on 11/18/2005 12:28:19 PM PST by Rampolla
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To: x5452
I was not speaking to parents just going to school boards. While that is a good idea, it is by no means a panacea for the problem any more than teaching ID is a solution.

I was speaking to daily involvement in the child's life and their involvement in the house of worship of their choosing.

When I grew up, my parents knew all the subjects my brothers and I were taking and part of the dinner table discussions were always on what my three brothers and I learned that day. That's parental involvement.

And it is not illegal for parents to question cirricula. That's defeatist propaganda.

48 posted on 11/18/2005 12:28:51 PM PST by Prime Choice (Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.)
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To: Humvee

Finally, someone who reads ancient history!
You refer to the Sumarians and the Epic of Gilgamesh, no doubt. Most of the Hebrew Scriptures were lifted from that ancient saga.


49 posted on 11/18/2005 12:29:39 PM PST by Duffboy
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To: Duffboy
"Most of the Hebrew Scriptures were lifted from that ancient saga."

What evidence will you provide, or are you simply stating your personal belief?

50 posted on 11/18/2005 12:33:34 PM PST by 1_Of_We
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To: unlearner
"Only that such a thing is belief and not science."

Science is based on and inseparable from philosophy and natural faith.

Science is based upon the scientific method, which includes observation and reproducibility of results. Until we can create another universe ex nihilo in the lab, the questions of who or what is behind creation is not one for the field of science.

Math is also not science (at least not a natural science). Should we keep math out the science class too?

Yes, we should keep math out of science class. This is idiotic. Math is repeatable and reproducible. It is science.

Believing in a Creator (which I do) is not science.

SD

51 posted on 11/18/2005 12:38:06 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Rampolla
Such natural explanations are more often than not philosophy of science and not science itself. The scientific method is not self-explanatory. I mentioned no "proofs" for the God of Revelation.

Philosophy is limited in what it can show: a First Mover, an Uncaused Cause, a Designer. This does not prove the God of Revelation. For that you need Faith. Faith tells us that the First Mover, the Uncaused Cause etc. is God, that is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Scriptures and Christianity.

The scientific method, and indeed science itself, is merely an artificial construct of man. But it is not an arbitrarily designed tool; it has been crafted to do a job. Namely, to aid man in understanding the natural existence around him. To subject God to this tool is to ask man to define Him by virtue of what is not included in nature. Therefore, if this is the measure of God, then whenever something is at last understood it is another piece of God that is taken from Him. I don't like that idea.

Philosophy is limited by what can be imagined, not by what can be shown. It provides sustenance for thought, and through thought, spiritual enlightenment. Within this realm man stands a chance at strengthening his grasp on God's true glory.

Science seeks facts, philosophy seeks truths. Facts require evidence, truths thrive on understanding. Which would you prefer to use to know your God?

52 posted on 11/18/2005 12:44:47 PM PST by Antonello
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To: Prime Choice

http://www.townhall.com/news/ext_wire.html?rowid=35517

Nothing the parents can do.

That's why my kids will be going to Private Catholic School.


53 posted on 11/18/2005 12:45:02 PM PST by x5452
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To: 1_Of_We

Google, " Epic of Gilgamesh". The proof is in the reading....passages lifted straight out of this saga and transposed to the Hebrew Scriptures.
The ' Flood" is one instance.
The early Hebrews came from Sumaria ( think Abraham )who carried with him Sumarian folklore which passed was along as oral history before it was written down.


54 posted on 11/18/2005 12:46:05 PM PST by Duffboy
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To: 1_Of_We
"Most of the Hebrew Scriptures were lifted from that ancient saga."

What evidence will you provide, or are you simply stating your personal belief?

The Seven Tablets of Creation springs to mind.

55 posted on 11/18/2005 12:48:13 PM PST by Antonello
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To: x5452
Get back to me on that one after the appeals are exhausted and the Supreme Court has either ruled on the issue or let a lower court ruling stand.

The 9th circus is just an absurdity masquerading as a part of the judiciary. Everyone and their brother knows that.

56 posted on 11/18/2005 12:48:48 PM PST by Prime Choice (Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.)
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To: Prime Choice

Well the Supremes didn't exactly set the record strait on property ownership... (we'll see how the new members weigh in on such things)


57 posted on 11/18/2005 12:55:09 PM PST by x5452
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To: x5452
I understand your concerns and have heard them from many valued and trusted friends. My response is the same today as it has been in the past: pray, have faith, rebuke despair.   The Good Lord, in His Divine wisdom and mercy, will not only provide, but prevail.

And yes, even I have to be reminded of that...which is why we faithful gather together; so that one can be strong when another is in doubt.

May God bless you and keep you.

58 posted on 11/18/2005 1:12:48 PM PST by Prime Choice (Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.)
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To: 1_Of_We
Amazing! You say MY judgement appears to be clouded... What did I write that led you to that conclusion? I suggest you were responding to your own imagination.

I was responding to your statement that "Not many (if any) scientific 'facts' exist to support the 'Theory of Evolution'."

I supplied the photograph of a number of nice fossil skulls, along with chimp and modern human skulls, noting that these are facts.

On another note, what are you attempting to illustrate with the pictures of various skulls? How accurate shall we say the dates are? What portion of 'evolution' do you say they support?

What I was trying to illustrate is that there are a lot of facts to work with. The dating is another subject, but there is a lot of evidence there too. Radiometric dating is a whole broad field with geology, nuclear chemistry, and a variety of other disciplines involved. It might not be exact, but it appears from several dating methods and corroborating evidence that it is pretty accurate.

Many people may agree on 'facts'. Their agreement does NOT, in and of itself, constitute truth. So now where shall we go?

The goal of science is not truth--you need to seek elsewhere for that. What science tries to come up with are well-supported theories. This sums it up well:

In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.

[From an NSF abstract cited by RadioAstronomers's post #27 on another thread.]


59 posted on 11/18/2005 2:20:23 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Antonello

You state: "To subject God to this tool is to ask man to define Him by virtue of what is not included in nature. Therefore, if this is the measure of God, then whenever something is at last understood it is another piece of God that is taken from Him. I don't like that idea."

I have not said the scientific method is the measure of God. Science is a tool that investigates nature in a determined fashion with tests using measurement and quantification.

The debate is about empirical observations of an order/design. Philosophers have argued that this order means that there is an Orderer responsible for the observed order. Christian revelation provides that this Orderer is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Scriptures and Christianity.

St.Paul argues for this in Romans 1:Since the creaton of the world...God's eternal power and divinity have become visibile, RECOGNIZED THROUGH THE THINGS HE HAS MADE. (emphasis added) Romans 1:20

God is not subject to the tool. The tool reveals an order and design, which ultimately comes from the Creator.


60 posted on 11/18/2005 4:05:39 PM PST by Rampolla
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