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To: 2ndreconmarine

And where is the evidence that there is NO design to the universe? What evidence can support the idea that evolution is undirected? If there is none then it seems that evolutionists are going on faith because they believe something that cannot be supported with evidence. So why should undirected evolution be taught as a fact? I doesn't seem that there is any substance to the claim that there is no ID.


20 posted on 11/01/2005 7:58:35 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
And where is the evidence that there is NO design to the universe?

And where is the evidence that there is no Easter Bunny? Or bigfoot? Or the Tooth Fairy? Or Santa Claus? Time to make those science classes a lot longer to cover these theories as well...

32 posted on 11/01/2005 8:51:29 PM PST by blowfish
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To: metmom
And where is the evidence that there is NO design to the universe?

I think there is an issue of definitions here.

So lets work through it.

There is nothing in science that says "there is no design to the universe."

However, there is also nothing in science that says there is. Science is silent on the subject, as it must be. Any proper scientific theory is also silent on the subject. Now, ID is not silent on the subject, which is one of the many reasons ID is not science.

But there are other issues as well. I would argue that ID is not only not science, it is also bad religion (religion is used in the most general sense here). Certainly science can inform faith. In my case it does. However, the two must be kept separate.

For example, I am a Christian and I believe that God created the universe. That is a matter of faith, not science. It happens to be my faith. As a matter of faith, I believe God created life, too. However, to create the biological aspect of life (as apart from the spiritual part or soul), he used the mechanism of evolution.

Now, as a matter of science, I cannot prove God created life with evolution, that is a matter of faith. I can prove that evolution exists; that is science.

But as a matter of faith, I believe that ID is bad religion. Consider the central ID tenet: look at an engineered structure and you "know" it was designed: an airplane, a computer chip, a complicated building, etc. Pick the most complicated thing you can think of. Well, it turns out that none of them are "designed." At least not by a designer. They are all designed using global optimizing programs which use, get this, genetic algorithms. Genetic algorithms are a direct analog to evolution. They were written based on evolution. Yes, Darwin is responsible, directly, for the central algorithm of essentially all computer design systems of complicated structures, because it is one of the very few algorithms that can solve the global (rather than local) optimization problem.

So, if we look at all these complicated things we know one thing for sure. They were not "designed." They were developed by global optimizing algorithms based on Darwinian evolution. Only a complete imbecile would attempt to "design" a computer chip or circuit board without them.

So, could it be that God created the biological aspect of life with evolution?? As a matter of common sense and faith I believe that is more likely than His possible use of the direct design by ID?? Why, because he is not an imbecile. Of course He would use a global optimizing algorithm. Well, you might argue, God can do anything. He doesn't need to use your cute algorithm. Certainly correct. But which is the greater, more magnificent creation: creating the system that after 4.5 billion years created the life He wanted, or just magically creating it 6,000 years ago?? Or, as IDers argue, creating the system 4.5 billion years ago, but He didn't quite get it right and had to tinker with it a few times??

56 posted on 11/02/2005 8:42:49 AM PST by 2ndreconmarine
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