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To: SoothingDave
people are born into Christian families and have a "head start" and end up rebelling and going to hell. Others grow up as little pagans and find God through a conversion

Ok, we're connecting here. You are saying that God plays favorites and give some folks a head start by letting them be born into Christian families while others have to try to find him through a conversion? And if they fail to do so, he damns them to hell? That's not a very nice God, is it?

Both you and God know there are Buddhists living in the remote Himalayas who will never hear of Chrisitianity. If God knows that, why would he damn those folks to hell?

399 posted on 10/21/2005 12:46:32 PM PDT by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
Ok, we're connecting here. You are saying that God plays favorites and give some folks a head start by letting them be born into Christian families while others have to try to find him through a conversion?

As I noted above, a "head start" doesn't necessarily put one at an advantage. Nonetheless, it is obviously true that God allows different people to be born into different situations. This is not disproof of His existence.

Things to keep in mind. God calls all people to Him, regardless of the situation of birth. And those to whom much has been given are expected to make much of any advantage they may have.

Both you and God know there are Buddhists living in the remote Himalayas who will never hear of Chrisitianity. If God knows that, why would he damn those folks to hell?

Well, I never said He would, necessarily. I am a Catholic and we don't believe in the cruel God of some other flavors of Christianity. I think God can indeed save those who are invincibly ignorant of the need for Christ, if He so desires. They would need to live their lives according to the highest principles they can discern in their disadvantaged position. And they must be truly invincibly ignorant, not merely ignorant or willfully ignorant.

So I don't believe God automatically damns those who have not heard the Gospel, but they certainly operate from a severe disadvantage compared to those who have. Then again, God can save whom He wants and those who have the advantage of the Gospel and the Sacraments have little excuse for not living up to their calling.

SD

400 posted on 10/21/2005 1:19:46 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
Both you and God know there are Buddhists living in the remote Himalayas who will never hear of Chrisitianity. If God knows that, why would he damn those folks to hell?

God will damn "those folks" to hell on the same basis that He will damn "these folks" in the west to hell. God never judges a person for "how much" light they have as to His being, attributes, actions, and activities. Some people have more, and some have less. Romans is VERY clear on the point that God judges mankind on WHAT THEY DO WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM THAT THEY DO POSSESS. You take one man and put him in front of the banks of lights at Madison Square Garden, and another in front of a guy with flashlight with weak batteries and it is obvious who has "more light." However, if both men flee the light they have, we can assume both of the hate the light. That is the picture we have of mankind and God, and that picture is not pretty. The UNIVERSAL condition of the human heart is such that although man is incurably "religious," we actually hate the true God and our "religions" are usually contstructs that allow us to ameliorate the religious impulse within us while desperately fleeing any true contact with a just and holy God. That is why every religion in the world (including much of Christianity) is predicated on the notion of being good enough, trying hard enough, working long enough, etc. Religions are man's attempt to construct his own God who will allow men to save themselves. The idea that all men are cosmic rebels who hate and defy God, deserve nothing but punishment, and are wholly dependent on His mercy to pardon them is so offensive and hateful to us that it is astounding to me when I hear that it is made up. NO ONE would come up with such a crazyass religion. One theological wag said "I believe because it is absurd." That concept won't stand on its own, of course, but it is a powerful argument to me that the gospel is, in fact, true.

Back, then, to your question. God judges men for how they respond to what they know of Him, and has not left Himself without witness of some sort, either in the moral impulses of men or the observations of creation. All of humanity consistently has turned and does at present turn away from Him, so that all are justly under a sentence of cosmic death and exile. Any attempt to understand the message of Christianity which does not begin there just leads to a mess.

418 posted on 10/22/2005 4:43:06 AM PDT by chronic_loser
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