[Sam the Sham]

So the value to W of a win NOW is big, regardless that there were better nominee's available and W regards the damage from a loss NOW as huge.

A win over your own base is always a defeat in the long run. Clinton "won" in NAFTA. But that "win" meant turning the Democratic party into the party of upscale latte liberal manners and mores and ignoring the values and economic interests of blue collar Americans. The result ? The Democratic Party lost the House, the Senate and mayoralty after governorship because without economic populism they had nothing to counter 'values'. The New Democrats who had supported NAFTA were wiped out and the leftists who had opposed it survived.

[tennmountainman]

What are examples of conservative 'values'?
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Spending like drunken sailors, leaving the borders open, an unwillingness to confront democrats and change rules, even though we have a majority in all three branches...is this what conservative values mean in 2005?

[ModelBreaker]

A win over your own base is always a defeat in the long run.

Nicely said. It sucks, doesn't it?