It's always for a good cause isn't it? For the children, innocent people, the troops, whatever... I wonder what the following incidents produced?
Posted on 10/05/2005 8:08:18 PM PDT by FairOpinion
The Senate defied the White House yesterday and voted to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.
Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties. The White House had fought to prevent the restrictions, with Vice President Cheney visiting key Republicans in July and a spokesman yesterday repeating President Bush's threat to veto the larger bill that the language is now attached to -- a $440 billion military spending measure.
But last night, 89 senators sided with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), a former prisoner of war in Vietnam who led the fight for the interrogation restrictions.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
That last post was obviously supposed to be private. Sorry about that.
"I'm still not persuaded."
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Good thing.
How can anyone put the comforts of terrorists ahead of the lives of innocent people is beyond me.
"How can anyone put the comforts of terrorists ahead of the lives of innocent people is beyond me"
I'm not against torture because I care about the comfort of terrorists. I am against torture because I care about the welfare of the united States her people, her military and her allies and I believe it is better to avoid torture under almost any temptation. I also care about innocent people who might get arrested for one reason or another.
Information gained from terrorists already prevented multiple attacks.
The bottom line is: are you in favor of getting information from terrorists, by whatever means, to prevent the murder of hundreds, thousands or even millions or innocents.
Your answer is no. So you clearly place a higher value on the comfort of terrorists, than the lives of thousands of innocent people that said terrorists are plotting to murder.
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To GET INTELLIGENCE TO PREVENT THE MURDER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, that's why. You don't think people interrogate the terrorists, just to pass the time, do you?!
Of course, there's that pesky problem that torture doesn't yield reliable intelligence. And oddly enough, this inverse relationship between torture and useful information has been well known for about 60 years now. So it seems that torture is in need of some other justification.
It's always for a good cause isn't it? For the children, innocent people, the troops, whatever... I wonder what the following incidents produced?
People throw around the word "torture".
But this amendment prohibits "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment "
How do you define degrading? Anything the terrorists object to, such as being guarded by female guards, as someone pointed out.
And why do you think we should give foreign terrorists in foreign lands the same and more rights than our citizens have? You are setting up our soldiers everywhere to be prosecuted, if they hurt a hair on the head of a darling terrorist, even if thousands of innocent lives are at stake.
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S.AMDT.1977
Amends: H.R.2863
Sponsor: Sen McCain, John [AZ]
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r109:1:./temp/~r109CQR8wS:e911694:
TEXT OF AMENDMENTS -- (Senate - October 03, 2005)
(a) In General.--No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
(b) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section.
(c) Limitation on Supersedure.--The provisions of this section shall not be superseded, except by a provision of law enacted after the date of the enactment of this Act which specifically repeals, modifies, or supersedes the provisions of this section.
(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--In this section, the term ``cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984.
"The bottom line is: are you in favor of getting information from terrorists, by whatever means, to prevent the murder of hundreds, thousands or even millions or innocents.
Your answer is no. So you clearly place a higher value on the comfort of terrorists, than the lives of thousands of innocent people that said terrorists are plotting to murder."
Actually, I said I was almost always against torture and I am in favor of torture being illegal.
I've already specified some circumstances under which I would vote not to convict and even some circumstances in which I would personally violate that law.
I am also against murder and think murder should be illegal but there are times I would vote to not convict (like a woman who shoots her son's rapist at a moment when the child is not in physical danger.)
And my best wishes right back to you.
I think it goes back to the training or quality of training. Is the training being given and then reinforced? I think so in almost all units. There are a small number of cases of abuse and I think the Chain of Command needs to look at that if they haven't already.
I consider myself a republican, not a Republican. And I don't need to justify myself to people who call names instead of refuting a position logically. I notice no one cared to dispute my actual points. You might find my post posts re:2nd admendment issues enlightening.
The pictures in post 358 are mislabeled.The first two should be titled murder and mass murder,the tird photo is an example of compound stupidity.
You didn't have any actual points, other than we mustn't hurt a hair on the heads of those darling terrorists.
Here we have just captured three terrorists who planned to bomb the NY subway, killing at least hundreds of people.
Do you think we should interrogate them, by whatever means will produce results to be able to prevent the attack, or do you think we should just feed them lemon chicken, and wait until their cohorts blow up innocent people?
Say what you will about the wisdom of the amendment, but it is Congress' job to make the rules, not the president's.
But there is no excuse for them making BAD laws, which will totally cripple our fight against terrorists, and puts innocent people in grave danger, just so they can protect terrorists, who want to kill all of us, including the Senators.
See #413
Collectively, your posts represent a far better example of compound stupidity.
Again, this is a conservative site for conservatives. People like you are merely tolerated.
But not encouraged.
Oh by the way, if the majority of the Congress votes for a law over the objections and even the veto of the President,then that is the law of the land barring a ruling by the Supreme Court that the new law is in violation of the Constitution.
You are free to complain and seek to have the law changed by following the procedures set out by the Constitution,Congressional rules and lawsuits.
What you may not personally do is dictate to the nation or the world;neither may the President,nor should he be so allowed.
Yours is the kind of intolerant "tolerance" more at home with those who ban all they don't agree with.
Feel free to keep digging that hole though.
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