What about the 1964 Silver Dollars they minted in Denver and then melted? Allegedly they melted all of them but several are rumored to have escaped.
If you come up with one of these it will most certainly be seized.
Posted on 08/25/2005 9:52:28 AM PDT by LibWhacker
PHILADELPHIA - The U.S. Mint seized 10 Double Eagle gold coins from 1933, among the rarest and most valuable coins in the world, that were turned in by a jeweler seeking to determine their authenticity.
Joan S. Langbord plans a federal court lawsuit to try to recover them, her attorney, Barry H. Berke, said Wednesday. Langbord found the coins among the possessions of her father, longtime Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt, who had acknowledged having sold some of the coins decades ago. She now operates her father's business.
David Lebryk, acting director of the Mint, had announced in a news release that the rare coins, which were never put in circulation, had been taken from the Mint "in an unlawful manner" in the mid-1930's and now were "recovered."
The coins, which are so rare that their value is almost beyond calculation, are public property, he said.
But Berke said Mint officials couldn't prove the coins had been stolen, or were subject to forfeiture.
In 2002, Sotheby's and numismatic firm Stack's auctioned off a 1933 Double Eagle coin for $7.59 million, the highest price ever paid for a coin. That Double Eagle, which is believed to have been part of a collection belonging to King Farouk of Egypt, surfaced when a coin dealer tried selling it to undercover Secret Service agents.
After a legal battle, the dealer was permitted to sell the coin at auction on the condition he split the proceeds with the Mint.
In its statement, the Mint said officials were still deciding what they would do with the seized coins, which are being held at Fort Knox. They said they had no plans to auction them but would consider saving "these historical artifacts" for public exhibits. Other double eagle coins seized in the past were melted down.
Double Eagles were first minted in 1850 with a face value of $20. The 445,500 coins minted in 1933 were never put into circulation because the nation went off the gold standard. All the coins were ordered melted down, but a handful are believed to have survived, including two handed over to the Smithsonian Institution.
Langbord declined to discuss how the coins might have come into the possession of her father, who operated an antiques and jewelry shop for 70 years and died in 1990 at 95.
The Mint contends Switt obtained a cache of the gold coins from his connections at the Mint just before they were to be reduced to bullion in 1937.
Switt admitted in 1944 that he had sold nine Double Eagle coins, but he was not charged in connection with those transactions, according to the Mint.
The family attorney said the coins were found recently, and Langbord and her son, Roy, notified the Mint of the discovery in September. Mint officials asked to authenticate the coins, then confiscated them after doing so, Berke said.
He contended Langbord and her son never relinquished their right to the coins.
Not getting into any of that, with you.
I was talking about legal ownership of ITEMS, in and of themselves.
These coins had both intrinsic and extrinsic value. Even if agree with everything you posited (and for the most part, I do), the citizen came by them through less than honest means.
Go Irish!
Somehow your statement brought Beanie Babies to mind.
I suspect it comes down to laundering the provenance. Given the history, the woman must have known the coins were stolen, and therefore worth far less on the black market. But, by trying for an outcome similar to the Farouk deal (50% to the dealer, 50% to the Mint), she could realize a much greater amount in an above-board auction, with the ownership legitimized. She gambled and apparently lost.
Was the exact number of coins stolen ever determined? 10 now, 9 in 1944, is 19. Was the Farouk coin one of the 9, or is it number 20?
The local sheriff told him to get before he was tossed in jail;and just like bulldozers there are no registered titles for gold coins.Nor do I advocate the gov't having a list of who owns gold to go with the certainly extant but illegal lists of who has purchased firearms. A cash society is demonstrably freer than a credit card one.
A fairly good case could be made for returning the American Indians' their property. Just when does the statue of limitations come into play? I want to see the gov't getting all those stolen cars back from their Mexican owners of two weeks record.
You realize I have to make sure someone else doesn't use any of my land for (varies by state) years without written agreement else they can claim and keep it by adverse possession.
I would hold that where the original owner has made no effort to search for ,keep public awareness of, or otherwise recover said property for many years that his property rights are diminished.
If these coins were not valued extremely high there would be no seizure.
Accepting the assertation these were stolen originally,Perhaps the most reasonable solution in this case would be a public auction to collectors,etc with the former holders receiving the usual share as paid by the IRS and other agencies for finders' fees . Remember what was stolen was some coins valued by the gov't at $20 each, and they would have been reduced in value even more had they been melted(which was stupidity in itself.)I argue that the gov't having by its actions increased the value of the raw gold ,melting any of the coins was mal-or mis feasance in reducing the value of public property. Nor may an individual do as he likes with all his owned property,many items are restricted by law as to manner of destruction or disposal.
Incidentally I hold with the legal argument which the gov't has often benefited from in crimefighting that once you place an item in the trash readily accessible to the public that you relinguish control unless you secure the trash container or storage. You have every right to change your mind and retrieve it but if I salvage the item first,tough.(If it really is confidential letters,burn and /or shred them first.)
McCann was suspected of stealing over $1200 but was charged with $339.90 in coins. He took more than just $20 gold pieces. He pled guilty and was fined $500 and sentenced to server a year and a day at Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary.
That means that there are probably 6 more out there. One is rumored to be at the bottom of New York Harbor, thrown there to prevent the government from recovering it. Not proven though and may be an urban legend. One was sold in 1937 to J. F. Bell of Chicago - not recovered. One was sold to T. James Clark of Jamestown NY.One sold to Fred C.C. Boyd of NYC - not recovered, may be the one said to have been thrown in the harbor. Two sold to C. Frank Williams of Cincinnatti - not recovered. One sold to James Stack of NYC - may have been recovered - not certain.
Yeah and what and I said stands. They were worth what people were willing to pay for them in the past and current value again reflects what people will pay now. The same will apply to all that lovely real estate now in nice frothy bubbles. Thats the way markets work.
What about the 1964 Silver Dollars they minted in Denver and then melted? Allegedly they melted all of them but several are rumored to have escaped.
If you come up with one of these it will most certainly be seized.
(CT-GATA) Treasury Department Claims Power to Seize Gold, Silver--and Everything Else, GATA Says Business Editors MANCHESTER, Conn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 22, 2005--
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?ndmHsc=v2*A0*J2*L1*N-1002313*ZGold%20Anti-Trust%20Action%20Committee
The U.S. Government has the authority to prohibit the private possession of gold and silver coin and bullion by U.S. citizens during wartime, and, during wartime and declared emergencies, to freeze their ownership of shares of mining companies, the Treasury Department has told the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee.
But gold and silver owners aren't alone in such jeopardy. For the U.S. Government claims the authority in declared emergencies to seize or freeze just about everything else that might be considered a financial instrument.
The Treasury Department's assertions came in a letter to GATA dated August 12 and written by Sean M. Thornton, chief counsel
CONTACT: Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Chris Powell, 860-646-0500 KEYWORD: CONNECTICUT INDUSTRY KEYWORD: GOVERNMENT ENVIRONMENT MINING/METALS SOURCE: Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Copyright Business Wire 2005 Kathryn Lindsey, Editor Business Wire Dallas
Reminds me of the story about the poor Irish widow wrote to her IRA son in prison"son I don't know how I'm going to spade up the back garden,me with a bad back and all"So the son writes back"Ma,for G-- sakes ,that where the stuff is hidden" Next week the widow writes"Son,some nice men from the police came over and spaded up the whole garden ,bigger and deeper than you poor da' ever did;wouldn't let me help at all!"
Wasn't this covered by Dennis Prager some time ago?
I thought only one or two was on the loose..
I recall reading some stuff about this type of gold coin in the past; IIRC, they are indeed illegal to be in private hands and couldn't be there legitimately. I assume a "reputable" grading service would at the least have notified whoever brought them to the service, if not the gubmint - which could well be the case.
And did the gov't even issue paper in the amount of the actual value of the gold or the lsser gov't fixed price?Odd how we decry countries which don't allow the market to set exchange rates but ignore our own gov't market meddling.Odd too that the 1930s citizens so readily handed over their gold. In the times before all the neat gadgets that today see through walls it should have been simple to hide the gold and automatic weapons. Only a tyrant would need to deprive the people of easily portable wealth and protection. Why Americans have fought and died for two centuries to stop foreign tyranyts. Guess it's different when the tyrant is home-grown.
As a matter of fact they have had that power since 1917. Only FDR exercised it in 1933 and Gerald Ford recinded it in 1974. Exceptions were made for industries such as jewelers and dentists and there wa an exemption for coin collectors. Curiously *ANY* private ownership of gold certificates was outlawed during that time but many have survived. I was able to put a complete set ($10 - $20 - $50 - $100 - $500 and $1000) for much less than you would expect. I guess not all our parents were chumps.
I can't imagine that he got away with that. All bullion was to be turned in also. I just can't picture someone who may of 'panned' for gold for years and all on a stroke of an executive order he better turn it in or get 10 years in jail.
Btw, some of my relatives did not turn in their gold. I have it now : ) God bless those who disobey dumb government, which I guess 80% did at the time.
Actually there us great scandal waiting to be uncovered there. Shortly after the government seized all gold coins they jacked the price of gold up. All of that "profit" has to have been accounted for on the governments books and yet never has been. Someone, I think James Blanchard, estimated what the total was and it is a staggering figure, even more so for 1933.
How many times has the Federal Reserve been audited?
Very little North American land can be characterized as "stolen" from the natives. In most cases it was bartered for, bought, or someone signed a treaty relinquishing control over a piece of land.
To magnify a bit, I think the gold price was fixed by our government to an abnormal low price. I think they may of resold it at a profit on the world market.
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