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To: Moonman62

Batteries are chemical-reaction energy systems. No destruction of mass in any way, is what I am aware of. I want you to give me a link on how batteries use up mass to give energy. I am pretty confident there is no nuclear reaction happening in an electrolytic battery.


53 posted on 08/25/2005 10:36:39 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick
Batteries are chemical-reaction energy systems.

True

No destruction of mass in any way, is what I am aware of.

Energy has mass. There is energy that is no longer in the battery once it's been used.

55 posted on 08/25/2005 10:42:58 AM PDT by Moonman62 (Federal creed: If it moves tax it. If it keeps moving regulate it. If it stops moving subsidize it)
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To: CarrotAndStick
Batteries are chemical-reaction energy systems. No destruction of mass in any way, is what I am aware of.

The change in mass is so small that it isn't directly measureable - but change in mass there is.

http://www.ucdsb.on.ca/tiss/stretton/CHEM2/nuc02.htm
http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/faqs/faq1.html

FAQ 1: Why is so much energy produced when an atom is split or fused? What is meant here by "so much energy" -- much relative to what? The answer is relative to the mass of the fuel used. (If we burn enough fuel we can make as much electricity in a coal-fired power plant as in a nuclear one.) In any process the energy produced is determined by how much mass is converted to energy, following the rule E=mc2. So what we are really interested in here is the fraction of the mass that is released in the process.

The short answer to your question is that the energy release in nuclear fission or fusion is a larger fraction of the mass of the fuel than in chemical processes because the binding forces (and hence the binding energies) between the protons and neutrons in nuclei are much larger than those for atoms in a molecule or solid.

To understand this first let's look at a coal-burning power plant (that is for combustion or for any other energy-releasing chemical reaction). The usual rule taught in chemistry is that mass is conserved. The precise version of this statement is that the sum of the masses of the atoms is the same before and after any chemical process, since atoms are not created or destroyed in chemical processes. But every stable molecule has a mass that is a tiny bit less than the sum of the masses of the atoms it contains. It is less by an amount (binding energy)/c-squared, where c is the speed of light (m=E/c2 is just another way of writing E=mc2).

The energy released in any chemical combustion process is just the difference in binding energy between the molecules present before burning and those present after the burning. The typical binding energy of a molecule is a few parts in a billion of the mass-energy (mass times c-squared) of the molecule. (That's why we never see a measurable mass change in chemical reactions, our chemistry lab experiments never have a balance that's accurate to that level.)


63 posted on 08/25/2005 11:30:18 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: CarrotAndStick
Batteries are chemical-reaction energy systems. No destruction of mass in any way, is what I am aware of. I want you to give me a link on how batteries use up mass to give energy. I am pretty confident there is no nuclear reaction happening in an electrolytic battery.

I am sorry that you got a substandard education in physics and thermodynamics.

79 posted on 08/25/2005 5:11:45 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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