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To: pigdog; RobFromGa
"do to my poor HTML, nicely formated chart not carried over"

Thank you for posting this. I hadn't had the time to put it together myself. Since it may not be obvious to everyone, lets look only at the tax at level 1.

Level 1 = $0.11
Level 2 = $0.11 + ($0.11 * .33) = $0.1463
Level 3 = $0.1463 + ($0.1463 * .33) = $0.1946
Level 4 = $0.1946 + ($0.1946 * .33) = $0.2588
Level 5 = $0.2588 + ($0.2588 * .33) = $0.3440

So, at the end consumer, that $0.11 Corp tax costs the consumer $0.3440 after each layer adds their percent of profit on top.

This is where the embedded taxes end up costing the consumers more than the total tax collected. It also does not even broach the subject of compliance costs or payroll tax which would also be cascaded at the same level.

Is there research that shows the typical number of levels in a manufactured product?
324 posted on 08/25/2005 7:14:51 PM PDT by Gvl_M3
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To: Gvl_M3

Yep, that seems to be pretty much the mechanism.

The SQL crowd will not admit it (actually cannot as it destroys their position) so they'll now attack you personally.


326 posted on 08/25/2005 7:24:27 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: Gvl_M3
It also does not even broach the subject of compliance costs or payroll tax which would also be cascaded at the same level.

And even that is only the beginning.

Try and get your hands on a copy of James L. Payne's great book entitled Costly Returns - The Burdens of The U.S. Tax System

327 posted on 08/25/2005 7:27:45 PM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: Gvl_M3; pigdog; RobFromGa; groanup
I never responded to pigdog four years ago about his table of compounded costs, so I'll respond now (since it has been introduced into this thread in post #311). You'll all note that the cost growth is geometric with a first order sensetivity (profit) and a second order sensetivity (tax rate.) As with many statistical hypotheticals, your assumed inputs can have a great effect (distortion, if chosen improperly) on the outcome.

To wit:

pigdog has chosen a taxable profit margin of 33%, since this variable has a first order effect on the outcome, and is a geometric factor, the outcome inflates rather quickly to an extraordinarily large level.

I believe that groanup pointed out later in post #340 that taxable profit is about 3% of revenue (an interchangable term with price) not 33% as offered by pigdog.

I'll leave the fancy chart making to others, but at the more accurate taxable profit margin of 3%, and a tax rate of 34.4%, $1.00 flowed through 6 levels of production that simply extract a profit and have no additional costs becomes $1.27. That represents an accumulated profit of $0.20 on the original $1.00, and an accumulated tax of $0.07.

The total tax burden to the consumer is a much more reasonable 5.4% of the price (not the whopping 23% offered by pigdog ... does that number look familiar?). Of course, eliminating that 5.4% of price by eliminating the profit tax an replacing it with a 23% inclusive sales tax make the price $1.55 (vs $1.27 ... but to point this out would be to ignore many facets of the model which have been simplified away ... and we wouldn't want to do that, now would we?)

As with all these discussions, accurate repsentation of the situation depend on accurate choices of examples and inputs.

364 posted on 08/26/2005 2:17:58 AM PDT by Dimples
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To: Gvl_M3; sitetest

Here is a way to look at your example:

Level 1: Hot Dog Packer, manufactures hot dogs and sells to
Level 2: Fred's Hot Dogs, who buys the hot dogs and resells them without adding any value for 33% higher to
Level 3: John's Hot Dogs, buys the hot dogs and resells them without adding any additional value for 33% higher to
Level 4: George's Hot Dogs, buys the hot dogs and resells them without adding any additional value for 33% higher to
Level 5: Johnny's Really Good Dogs, who buys the hot dogs and sells them without adding any additional value to the end consumer for 33% more than he paid.

And remember that at each step of the way none of these companies has any inputs except for the hot dogs they buy-- no buildings, employees, phones, trucking charges, etc. Plus each of them is a C-Corp paying max corporate income taxes.

Try the examples with some real numbers (site_test has done this, he can probably show his example) and the accumulated tax numbers are much much lower. It is of course unreasonable just from a common sense point of view that these numbers could get as large as your example shows.

The pigdog example just shows that when you put garbage into a spreadsheet, garbage can come back out.


436 posted on 08/26/2005 7:35:04 PM PDT by RobFromGa (Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran-- what are we waiting for?)
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To: Gvl_M3

You have calculated profit and then the tax and added them together to get selling price, but taxes are taken from profit not added to it. The gross profits are taxed, yielding after-tax profits. The selling price in Level one for your example would be $1.33 not $1.44 because the taxes come out of the profit to make the final level 1 "after-tax" profit $0.22.

Plus the example still has all the other flaws discussed in the previous post.


441 posted on 08/26/2005 8:32:33 PM PDT by RobFromGa (Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran-- what are we waiting for?)
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