A tear for WTC victims falls from distant Russia

The Star Ledger ^ | Tuesday, August 23, 2005 | RONALD LEIR

[Quinotto]

Aliska, in a perfect world this could be possible. Unfortunately, as you can see, the...dislike towards the Russians from the former communist countries in the Eastern European block is not one way, it something which is mutual. There is too much involved here, Eastern Europe has a long and complicated history long before communism, there are strong feelings of nationalism which cannot be understood by an American (it's not a fault, it's just history). It is an odd position, we are all at each other throats but when facing a common enemy, all this...animosity disappears. Before the fell of communism, it was the political system which united the PEOPLE of Eastern Europe, regardless of their nationality but it all came to bits after it. I mean, take a look at former Yugoslavia, while under communist boot, there was no difference between Muslims and Christians because the common enemy (communism) threatened both their cultures and traditions. Once that was gone, the Muslims remembered the old ways (courtesy of nature, atavism and Middle East Arab backers) and tried to claim land which was never theirs and the rest is history.

[jb6]

It doesn't take much effort to sink the one agenda poster. It was quid pro quo. The one agenda poster is usually the paid troll.

[jb6]

Lukasz arrives to disparage even this. Yup, as predictable as any one agenda poster....

[Quinotto]

You know I like you and your vitality on the forum but sometimes you go completely wacko (like in this instance). Truth be told, all that Lukasz did was present a true fact and the rules of argument makes it incumbent upon the challenger to demonstrate the accuracy of his statement. You've done this before, why not now?

[jb6]

Its the fact that he presents a fact to, as we say here, rain on the parade. There is no positive thread about Russians where he won't show up to piss on it.

[Quinotto]

Bud, simple question: do you deny that Zurab Tsereteli is Georgian born? If you do, what is your proof? If you agree, admit it and let it go, your stress will go away and you avoid another risk for cardiac disease (a common cause of death amongst the Russians -> I am JUST kidding,before you go nuts on me too, yanking your chain by stereotyping just to make a point!).

[elbucko]

...than our own leftist citizens, who were fellow travellers with that enemy.

A country's greatest traitor is never up to the measure of the most common of its enemy.

The common Soviet soldier at Stalingrad had 1,000 times the courage, even if forced, of the Rosenberg's who willingly betrayed their country.

[Aliska]

Zurab Tsereteli is GEORGIAN not Russian like article claimed

Never heard of the artist, but was dimly aware that Georgia is a satellite country of Russia, not a part of Russia itself.

From your screen name, I wouldn't know if you were Russian, Polish, Lithuanian, or Texan.

I took your post at face value, didn't detect anything anti-Russian, do not want to get in a flame was over it.

I think jb6 didn't like me on another thread. It's all forgotten now unless I go back and reread the thread, I think I saved that one, maybe not. I've gotten really hurt by some attacks (I know I shouldn't take it personally, it's only the internet). Sometimes maybe I had it coming and sometimes I definitely did not. One person was so utterly cruel and mocking on another thread, I quit going to church because of it.

The minute you say anything that goes against the general consensus of what the majority of the group decides, you will be attacked and called ugly names or asked what you are doing on a conservative forum. Doesn't matter that I voted for Bush, am extremely pro-life, etc. I have what I call my non-negotiables, but am humanitarian and moderate on some issues.

And I don't have anything against any of the particular groups except the ruthless communists and collaborators no matter which country they did their dirty work in. I happen to like what I know about the Russian people.

[Lukasz]

Never heard of the artist, but was dimly aware that Georgia is a satellite country of Russia, not a part of Russia itself.

Little correction, Georgia is an independent country, not a Russian satellite. Although Kremlin is supporting and arming anti-Georgian separatist in two provinces of Georgia but it is a theme for another discussion.

Cheers!

[Aliska]

I do know a little of what you speak and understand some of the underlying reasons therefor. Several years back, I worked with a Polish lady who told me how she felt about Gorbachev in her broken English. "Gorbachev out". She also told me that the Russians took all the Polish shoes and boots and sent them to Russia; i.e., under Russian domination, the Russians confiscated all the best goods produced by the Poles and left them to scramble over anything left. She was in heaven buying second-hand clothes at a thrift shops, boxing them up, and sending them to her grandchildren in Poland, and the postage was very expensive. When I cooked something up with brown sugar, she said they didn't have that in Poland, and was ecstatic when I found her some roasted buckwheat at a health food store they call Kasha so she could make her different variations of Pirogi. Later I found some in a small box high on a shelf in the local supermarket. She and her Polish friends had gone months without it. All that was just before the end of the cold war, glasnost or whatever, the fall of communism.

Oh, and the cutest thing. She knew what sour cream was and used it a lot, but she needed a certain kind of cheese for one kind of baked pirogi (almost like a pie the way she made it). The girl who normally did the shopping kept bringing her cream cheese, cottage cheese, the wrong kind of cheese. She kept saying "cheese" over and over. Finally I figured it out. She wanted dry curd cottage cheese, and was so happy when I got some for her.

So that's my story for today and I don't want to get into the various rivalries and resentments between all the people who suffered horribly under the Russian occupation. Hungarians got meat only once a month. Probably so did many Russians and others.

[Quinotto]

Smart girl, I am telling you for your own good, stay away from this kitchen, it blows up all the time. I am saying this to you since I was also born in an Eastern European country and I held the match to the unlit stove many times in this kitchen when it came to Eastern European issues. It's too deep, too old, too complicated and too ugly (unfortunately!).

[jb6]

One person was so utterly cruel and mocking on another thread, I quit going to church because of it.

What on earth would make you do that? Actually I believe I took your side on a couple of threads against several posters who were just plain vicious. The issue, if I remember correctly, was outsourcing.

[Romanov]

Zurab Tsereteli! VERY scary statues. The most scary were the statues he had made for a childrens park. Looked like a bunch of freak pederasty.

[Aliska]

I took your side on a couple of threads against several posters who were just plain vicious

Perhaps you did. If so, a belated thank you. I don't remember because I don't want to go back there and reopen old wounds. I don't "do" Wal Mart threads, harp seal threads, and most church threads.

[jb6]

It was a Walmart thread and you had pictures of ruined businesses.

[Aliska]

Yeah. That's another one I don't want to go back there.

[Lukasz]

Imagine that you have money but you cannot buy anything, because shops are totally empty! Typical situation in communist Poland.

[Romanov]

"Any person can leave his condolences in a book placed at southern entrance of the US embassy in Moscow, according to RIA “Novosti”.
The book was placed at 9 a.m. for everybody who wants to express compassion to the US people on the 9/11 tragedy. All that time Moscovites have been bringing flowers to the walls of the embassy. Among them there are many Americans who happened to be in Russia at the time of the tragedy. Every single minute new flowers were layed to the walls of the Embassy. When asked why they had come, the people answered : “Sympathy. All my family is shocked by the what happened”. There are icons, lit candles and a slogan “We are together with you” at the walls of the embassy."

I was at my office in the US Embassy on 11 September. A co-worker's wife called from the States and said a plane had crashed into the WTC. We thought it was a light aircraft, perhaps lost, that crashed into it. She called back a few minutes later to tell us another plane had crashed into the WTC and we all realized it was terrorists.

Later that evening Russians started leaving flowers and notes expressing their sympathy and outrage at what happened. By the next morning the whole length of the Embassy building on Novinsky Bulvar (the Old Embassy building - I have a fantastic picture of it, if someone could explain how to post pictures on here, I'll post it) was covered with flowers, candles, letters, and other items left behind by well wishers. Some of the more memorable ones was a wreath layed by members of the FSB's elite Alpha group. On the wreath was a pledge of support against terrorism. Another wreath was placed by disabled Afghan War veterans. Some letters of note were those placed by WWII veterans who recalled a time when we fought together as allies and also remembered US Aid to Russia in the form of the "Lend Lease" program. But the one thing that really stood out to me was when I was walking home a day or two after 11 September and I saw Moscow buses displaying small American flags in their front windshields. The drivers said they were all showing solidarity with Americans.

On September 12, our day in the office was spent answering phone calls from veterans groups, Duma reps, and Russian military members who called from all over Russia to express their sympathy and support. A Russian military laboratory, barely able to fund itself, volunteered to help with identifying the dead (they weren't needed).

Russian television coverage of the events was outstanding. There was none of the liberal "why do they hate us" handwringing that came from our press. It was all about the scourge of Islamic terrorism. Memorable quotes were "All they know how to do is destroy, they add nothing positive to mankind."

[Aliska]

Typical situation in communist Poland.

Probably so. It was also typical in many parts of Russia except for the ruling elite and a few others. But I was warned to stay out of that kitchen and think I'd better not get into it any further.

I can only imagine the reverse because I lived it to some extent for long years. The shops were full and I didn't have very much money. My father helped us. Without that, I don't think I could have made it, even on welfare which I wasn't. I just could not earn enough money in a full-time job to pay all the bills, and there was nothing for any luxury items of any type like film processing of pictures of my children. I didn't have the skills to survive on welfare, could not have kept any kind of car going without trading sex for somebody to fix it, etc. We wouldn't have starved on food stamps, but I would have had to live in some hellhole.

[-YYZ-]

I like the concept and symbolism of it. It's not particularly pretty, but then I'm not sure a monument to several thousand people murdured by fanatics should be pretty - it was a tragedy, after all.