Replies

Lets steer clear of personal accusations and stick with the disagreement.

Now that you have been called out on multiple disparagemeents, you try and claim the higher ground. Too late. You were caught red-handed. Mr. "Anti-Alarmist".

Well, I'm not appeasing anyone. I want communism to end in China.

So you are an anti-communist now? (Mr. 30,000 daily deaths of children) Not by any evidence of your policy of see-no-evil in China. Walter Duranty had nothing on you. Not appeasing? Prove it. Read some of the serious warnings about the Communist Chinese military potential...after it is allowed to "ascend peacefully" but without any fundamental ideological change...an unregenerate and bitterly hostile enemy to the West.

I just don't think there is a grand plan to industrialize China for the reason that China can launch an assault on the world.

Appeasement. Refusing to see the world as it is.

I think the purpose is to provide a standard of living for the people to maintain stability.

Typical self-justifying rationalization of appeasers. "Lebensraum"...was a similar pretext. If they want to improve their standard of living...then all they need do is adopt capitalism and FREE enterprise. Eliminate the Socialist superstructure...let wages float. Let people move. Let them organize for bettering their condition. Let them seek higher wages. Let them leave the country without being a Party apparatchik. Let them own property without the Party say so. Let them own their own inventions, and profit thereby. Let the currency float. Let freedom ring. But they will never do ANY of that so long as their ruling class fervently believes in "scientific socialism". Read their Constitution. It says it all. The western export sector is a managed "exception" that is rigorously maintained as such. And the wages are kept down not just for the national purpose of maintaining their economic black hole operation to suck in all the world's industry and technology. But to keep the peasants from becoming a true middle class (and hence ending your poverty issue)...and prevent democracy from finding fertile soil.

Does the living standard pretense soothe your conscience? While meanwhile a policy of see-no-evil endangers the existence of liberty all across the globe...and the very existence of the U.S.A.?

Are you really then, against China, whether free or not, increasing their standard of living?

No, obviously not. See the above explication. But you manifestly are, since you are opposed to challenging the Communists. You are opposed to evicting the communists, post-haste.

And aren't you making generalities of Chinese and Arabs in an argument about military?

Uh, I was responding to some of YOUR generalities...such as your latest, for example, the "living standard" pretextual justification to "see-no-evil". You denied that they were motivated by anything other than bettering their people's life styles. Not so.

The PRC pursues (in their value system) higher purposes than what you value in yours...which they would frankly deem petty. This is analogous to the distinction between Sparta and Athena. The Chinese as a whole understand (certainly the ones I have met) this militarized mindset perfectly well, as does the average jihadist, that they are at war with the United States. It is thus not surprising that Bejing's top military commanders thence met with Osama Bin Laden five times prior to 9-11. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." So much for their just worrying about the living standards of their peasants...as they flagrantly risk getting all of them and us incinerated in a nuclear war.

You seem to be hard on a society that doesn't share your strong opinion of China...

Actually, not the society , no. Just the individuals who are invidious culprits in the mass delusion. The American society by and large does, fortunately, show it has a real concern about all these things. Just because the New York Times and the liberal elite don't does not account for the American majority. It never gets polled, if you'll note by the Gallup organization, or if so,never published.

WHY do you think the country ousted Al Gore in 2004? Because of "compassionate" conservatism? Give me a break. The public knew RINOism is not as good as the Real Thing. Authentic Conservatism. But they weren't offered that...no authentic Reaganism, anyways. But still, we all knew half a loaf was better than none. They wanted honesty. They wanted national security. And most of all, the people wanted their own government again, not one catering to every whim of China's communist rulers. GWB appeared certainly better than the alternative of leaving the culprits in power. And the second election was a re-run of the first with still another Marxist Turncoat pretending to be something else as the Rat candidate, but the Iraq war muddling the issues. Again the conservative Base saved GWB bacon.

I note you are fairly oblivious to the China-gate issue, and Los Alamos-gate, Lawrence Livermore-gate and the ongoing 3,000 PLA front companies and 450,000 spies and part-timers here. You don't answer any of the challenges, just try and pivot and play a new line. Typical.

Don't forget [for] every Winston Churchhill, there is [are] many many more who are actually wrong, but history does not record these folks because they fade into history.

Oh, really? Such as Demosthenes? Or Ronald Reagan? And of those you assert were wrong, how many influenced the policies successfully so that the collisions warned of were in fact averted? (Thus making them "wrong") I wouldn't mind be "wrong" under those circumstances. That's all we want. Policy change. Awareness. Stop tempting fate, and risking smugly blundering into a collossal strategic surprise. Not unlike Churchill. If he had been heeded, Hitler would have been ended without WW-II. He also warned us about the Soviets, and FDR laughed it off. So wave around your claim that there are "many" "wrong...folks" as if it in any way can apply to the real and growing threat of COMMUNIST China...which has openly declared itself an enemy at almost all levels but the diplomatic...where the arts of deception are feeding the self-delusory U.S. State-Dept types all the lines they want to hear. Suckers for the Lie of the Day.

I would think the measure of how self absorbed a society is, would be measure in areas such as how indifferent society is towards the 30,000 children that die everyday throughout the world rather than whether or not how China is industrializing or what they are spending on their military.

The liberals are always shrilly foisting this guilt trip on Americans. This is a false dichotomy. The U.S. already does more than the rest of the planet put together trying to feed "the poor." However, there is a graver threat. How many more people will starve or die far worse deaths still in WW-IV? Preventing WW-IV...on the cheap... is the best thing you can do for the global condition of mankind... Appeasement won't prevent it. It will merely feed the Dragon, and grow it, and make it more deadly. It merely postpones the day of reckoning.

When I read that verse, this is in reference to being a witness for God. In what context are you using it?

Literally. As a general truism. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Now that you have been called out on multiple disparagemeents, you try and claim the higher ground. Too late. You were caught red-handed. Mr. "Anti-Alarmist".

You’re an ornery one.

Actually, I have nothing to prove. The American policy is to continue to expand trade with China. Our President and much of Congress have paved the way for further trade with China. CEO’s rush in to expand production there. Banks are lining up to get into China once the WTO 2006 deadline is here. AMERCIAN businessmen are the ones going to China and seeking for ways to source more goods there. My argument is simply stating that those who are the China Hawks have ulterior motives. Since you want to stop this expanded trade, YOU are the one that need to prove your point that all this trade that China is ALLOWING to come into their country is a big and grand scheme to launch a hostile attack onto the world. If everyone was as convinced as you are, I’m sure they would stop what they are doing.

Also, keep in mind that the Chinese government, at the moment, is the one who is slowing all the spending that is occurring in China. They are the ones that are slowing investments, including foreign sources. It is the WTO and their major member countries who are PUSHING China to open her markets further. Gee Chinese sure seem incredibly clever to orchestrate a world in which they come to China and push their way in.

You also need to confront Former President Bush Sr. himself when CEO’s of American corporations bring him to Beijing to use his connections to ensure the most influential decision makers are present to secure the best business deals they can. You need to tell his son, the current President, to get out of Iraq and quite wasting American military resources on such a small country and focus them on China. You need to convince the American public to institute a draft to be ready for a conflict with China, because at this point, ending American trade isn’t going to prevent China from developing their industries.

You are the one that need to prove your point to the trade representatives that “appease” China in negotiating trade agreements.

Since you feel so threatened, you are the one that need to campaign China Hawks such as Pat Buchanaan to not give up running for office. Oh, and also convince the public that he is a level headed thinker and that he has the best interest of America in mind. I don’t think he is and I’ll never be convinced of that, but you need to convince the American public that.

You are the one that need to confront the many securities firms like Morgan Stanley that bring investments into China. You need to convince the security firms that send billions over there to help set up wafer fabrication facilities and other high tech industries in China. You need to convince people in General Motors that have already spent billions building large auto plants over there and have further ambitions to double, maybe triple capacity to stop what they are doing.

You are the one that need to confront the many engineering firms that trek on over there to help build China’s huge infrastructure, from ports, to roads, to nuclear reactors. You are the one that need to convince Westinghouse not to solicit their reactor design to the Chinese……oh….and tell the French, Japanese, Russians, and Canadians to stop going over their with plan in toe with their reactor designs.

You are the one that need to tell Bill Gates to not invest building a developmental center in Beijing. You need to tell Boeing not to solicit their airplanes to China and thereby offloading work to them.

And lets not forget Walmart......a Walmart that has it’s vendors sit in a room to bid against one another. And after finding the lowest bidder, encourage that bidder to go to China and build it even cheaper. And they don’t stop there either. Walmart gets their other vendors to go to China also to see if they can use China sources better than the one that wins the bid.

Oh, and lets not forget the many credible business magazines like Businessweek, Forbes, and Fortune magazine that treat business with China like doing business with any other country. Any negative view of China will only be found in the China Hawk sources, but then again, many of them aren’t mainstream sources.

And everything I’ve described is just scratching the surface in which Americans are going over there. I can also describe more if I include the Japanese, Russians, Europeans, Canadians, Australians, Koreans, etc., activities. Not to mention many OPEC nations who have opened up to China.

YOU……have a lot of people to convince……oh….and ..best wishes!!

By your definition, all these people are NOT anti-communist when they go about doing their daily duties.

Another group you will have to confront (and I see your claim to Christianity) is the many mission groups and organizations that go over there to promote the gospel.

Billy Graham himself has been highly criticized for his efforts in convincing swing voters in congress to continue trade with China. This is from a man who has stayed away from politics for many years because he has been badly burned whenever he ventures in the political arena. But he couldn’t keep silent about further opening China up to the outside, so he has stepped up to bat speaking on behalf of expanding trade with China. He feared a backlash, got it, and still kept speaking up on behalf of expanding trade with China. A man I truly respect because he spoke for what he felt was right. He himself has questioned the motives of the China Hawks as do I.

Appeasement. Refusing to see the world as it is.

Typical self-justifying rationalization of appeasers. "Lebensraum"...was a similar pretext.

Wow, that’s a big leap.

If they want to improve their standard of living...then all they need do is adopt capitalism and FREE enterprise. Eliminate the Socialist superstructure...let wages float. Let people move. Let them organize for bettering their condition. Let them seek higher wages. Let them leave the country without being a Party apparatchik. Let them own property without the Party say so. Let them own their own inventions, and profit thereby. Let the currency float. Let freedom ring. But they will never do ANY of that so long as their ruling class fervently believes in "scientific socialism". Read their Constitution. It says it all. The western export sector is a managed "exception" that is rigorously maintained as such. And the wages are kept down not just for the national purpose of maintaining their economic black hole operation to suck in all the world's industry and technology. But to keep the peasants from becoming a true middle class (and hence ending your poverty issue)...and prevent democracy from finding fertile soil.

There are income disparities in China. But then again, it is typical when a country builds industry as fast as China has. Also, I hope you realize, there is no such thing as a purely capitalistic society. Every country has some degree of government intervention. China’s government reaches further than Western countries, but it is retrenching. As I’ve stated earlier, I believe, in the near future, France will have more industries controlled by government than China. The government in China is retrenching and combined with a growing private sector, China could someday be more capitalistic than most countries in Europe. I also believe democracy will come to China someday the way it did in South Korea and Taiwan.

One admission I will make, is that the China Hawks actually bring about a better China. However, I doubt that is their intentions.

Does the living standard pretense soothe your conscience?

Soothe my conscience? I didn’t know that if wasn’t an opinionated China Hawk, I should feel guilty about my views.

While meanwhile a policy of see-no-evil endangers the existence of liberty all across the globe...and the very existence of the U.S.A.?

You do know how to live life on the offensive.

No, obviously not. See the above explication. But you manifestly are, since you are opposed to challenging the Communists. You are opposed to evicting the communists, post-haste.

I am opposed to bringing the economic progress of China to a grinding halt, which I believe the China Hawks want to do. However, I do believe democracy will one day come to China, so in the meantime, why slow progress?

Also, another thing I am opposed to, are individuals that really couldn’t care less on how China is doing, but pretends to be so concerned about human rights and democracy over there. But when China modernizes and begins to make improvements, all of a sudden, appears a great concern about democracy and human rights in China (from the Hawks). Especially given that there are scores of countries out there that abuse human rights significantly more. Throughout the African continent, children are being forced into military conscription. In Afghanistan, women were forced to cover their whole bodies when they go out in public and beaten if they do not do so. No, it didn’t raise an eyebrow amongst the China Hawks who are so concerned about human rights in China. Not until 9/11.

Well, comparing the Chinese people to a small group of Jihadist, now I know the type of person I’m debating with.

Actually, not the society , no. Just the individuals who are invidious culprits in the mass delusion.

The American society by and large does, fortunately, show it has a real concern about all these things.

Yes, I agree, they do. Many go to China to work in the orphanages there. Many also go to adopt too. And, many are congressmen who vote for expanded trade with China.

Just because the New York Times and the liberal elite don't does not account for the American majority. It never gets polled, if you'll note by the Gallup organization, or if so,never published.

You seem to keep harping on the fact that the liberals are such China supporters. The reality is, they probably would partner with you in regards to China as a Hawk.

You like labeling people as either conservative or liberal, as being for or against communism, as either a Reaganist or Marxist.

I’m familiar with the topics. I also know that a lot of issues are blown out of proportion by the China Hawks when it concerns China.

I was just trying to be easy on you. But, the reality, how can you make a claim and compare yourself to Winston Churchhill? Anyone can make any kind of claim and then compare themselves to someone famous. That’s what a lot of people do with fad diets. They make outrageous claims on diet, and compare themselves to Louie Pasteur. Louie Pasteur made claims about bacteria, but his contemporaries mocked him. Louie Pasteur turned out to be right about bacteria. So the individual who thinks up these fad diets feels he’s in good company and thinks “When others mock my diet theory, I’m in the same boat as Louie Pasteur because they mocked him and he turned out to be right. So therefore I’m going to be right.” It’s flakey logic and that’s what you were doing.

The liberals are always shrilly foisting this guilt trip on Americans. This is a false dichotomy. The U.S. already does more than the rest of the planet put together trying to feed "the poor."

The issue of dying children throughout the world, is neither a liberal cause nor a conservative cause. If anything, it is a Christian cause. All those ads on TV about feeding the children have Christian backing and not partisan backing. I was merely making a point that you seem to believe that society is living in a vacuum just because the anti-China sentiment is not as strong yours. And my point is, there are other more significant or accurate measures that determine the level of indifference in a society than the China issue. And I gave an example of the 30,000 children who die every day as one measure. How about the human rights abuse in Sudan? Or the genocide in Rwanda? Has it gotten your goat up or are you still going to stew about China?

However, there is a graver threat. How many more people will starve or die far worse deaths still in WW-IV? Preventing WW-IV...on the cheap... is the best thing you can do for the global condition of mankind... Appeasement won't prevent it. It will merely feed the Dragon, and grow it, and make it more deadly. It merely postpones the day of reckoning.

Once again, you’re the one that has to prove the WWIII scenario. You’re going to have to convince a long list of “appeaser”, from the President of the United States to the Venezuelan oil tycoons to the Australian iron ore miners.

Literally. As a general truism. If the shoe fits, wear it.

I don’t see the connection…at all. .