[hispanarepublicana]

Just what is "Black Dutch" and "Black Irish"? I'd always heard "Black Irish" were from the days of the Spanish Armada in Ireland, but I'm not completely sure that's right.

[Wallace T.]

"Black Dutch" and "Black Irish" refer to persons of Northern European ancestry (German/Dutch and Irish/Scots-Irish) who are darker of hair, eye color, and particularly complexion than is the norm in that region. Parts of Southern and Western Germany, as well as Austria, were provinces of the Roman Empire and as a result received settlers from the Mediterranean region. The British Isles were on Phoenician trade routes due to the tin trade and some of the original settlers of Ireland came from what is now Spain, according to tradition. The Romans ruled what is now England and Wales for almost four centuries.

In an American context, mixed race people passing for white would tell others that their darker coloring was due to a Black Dutch or Black Irish ancestry, rather than an African or American Indian grandparent.

As for the Melungeons, researchers have found genetic markers from the Middle East and the Mediterranean in some of them. Middle Eastern ancestry is not found among a surrounding population of British Isles, West African, and American Indian origin. It is probable that at least some of the stories relative to Turkish or Portuguese origin are true.

[Little Bill]

"Black Irish"?

My mother is Black Irish, Dark Brown eyes, Olive skin, and dark Brown Hair, when she was younger, she also has an odd blood type for a Celt, AB.

Her family originated in Armah and as nearly as we can trace none of her family married outside of the Irish. I live in an area that is heavily Irish and she doen't look Irish at all.

[PennsylvaniaMom]

This is a fascinating thread. Referencing the 'Black Irish' I can add my families' definition. My late father always said we were 'Black Irish.' My grandmothers immigrated to the US to work as domestics (in the mansions of Pittsburgh) around the 1910 (or so). They were 'selected' for passage because they were tall, broad shouldered girls who could handle heavy work. From the pictures of them (and their sisters) they also had black hair, blue or grey eyes and fair skin. My grandfathers came over later (interestingly, the young women came first, and they sent the money back to Ireland) but they too had the same 'look.'

In boxes of old photos, there is not a redhead or blonde that appears (until about the 1970s...but that is better living thru chemistry.) We are all fair skinned, with pale olive tones, and we do tan. We are not the traditional freckled, fair haired Irish. My 'Black Irish' bloodlines come from the west coast of Ireland and County Mayo.

My dad had read (somewhere) that certain sounds (phonetic) Irish surnames were actually closer in origin to spanish than to the native irish.