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To: InterestedQuestioner

And I answered that with what should have opened your eyes to something:

How do you know they are in Heaven?

And

Who are you TOLD to pray to in the Bible?

There is NOT ONE VERSE in the Bible that tells you to pray to a dead person

There are MANY that tell you to pray to God!

So, How do you KNOW that person you are praying to/through is even in Heaven?

Second, why in the world would you pray to a person when God Himself tells you to pray to Him?


951 posted on 07/18/2005 3:50:56 PM PDT by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: RaceBannon
And I answered that with what should have opened your eyes to something:
How do you know they are in Heaven? And Who are you TOLD to pray to in the Bible? There is NOT ONE VERSE in the Bible that tells you to pray to a dead person There are MANY that tell you to pray to God! So, How do you KNOW that person you are praying to/through is even in Heaven? Second, why in the world would you pray to a person when God Himself tells you to pray to Him?


Race,

Good concerns you've raised. I think these have gotten fairly far afield from my original post, but I'll see if I can respond in an acceptable way.

Why in the world would you pray to a person when God Himself tells you to pray to Him?

A fair question. I do pray to God, and no one in the Catholic Church is going to tell you not to do so. Like all Christians, we Catholics not only pray to God, but we also ask others to pray for us. In the case of Catholicism, this includes asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for us. This seems like a completely reasonable and logical position to take to me. As your posts demonstrate, it's not proscribed in scripture, moreover, there is plenty of evidence from scripture that supports the practice. Quite a few verses have been sited on this thread, some additional ones to consider are Hebrews, Chapter 11 and 12, and the example in which Jesus relates the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, in which the rich man is cast into hell, and asks Father Abraham for mercy. (Luke 16:20-31). When it gets right down to it, Race, I ask the Saints to pray for me because it seems like a reasonable thing to do, and because "the prayer of the righteous man availeth much."

"There is NOT ONE VERSE in the Bible that tells you to pray to a dead person."


Race, in my post I pointed out that God is the God of the living, and not of the Dead, that is, the Saints in Heaven are quite alive, and hence we are not "praying to the dead." We ask the Saints to pray for us, and scripture has plenty of precedents for that, many of which have been sited in this thread.

How do you know they are in Heaven? ...So, How do you KNOW that person you are praying to/through is even in Heaven?

A great question. Many we know are in heaven because the Bible tells us they are, for example, Abraham, Enoch, Elija, and the thief on the cross next to Jesus. ( And note again that Jesus tells a story of a man petitioning Abraham who was in heaven.) See again Hebrews 11 and 12. Many others I know because I'm Catholic, and the Catholic Church tells me they are. That is to say, Race, I believe they are in Heaven for the same reason I believe that scripture is inspired--the Church, founded by Jesus Christ, tells me so. That's probably hard to accept for a person who believes that scripture should be the sole rule of Faith (which your post seems to indicate you believe, ie, you're asking for scriptural justification.) As a Christian, this is a tradition that I simply don't share with you. We both attempt to follow Christ, I do so in large part by attempting to learn from the Church that Jesus Christ founded, and you do so in large part by attempting to follow the teachings of the Scripture that were produced in that Church. In many ways, we have a philosophical difference of opinion that affects our approach to Christianity. I admire the sincerity of many who ascribe to a "bible alone" approach to Christianity, but I think that it cannot work in practice, and that everyone reads the scriptures through a lens or preconceived notions, many of which they are not even aware. Having considered many of the lenses available, I chose to read the scripture from the heart of the Church, as a Catholic, and feel this is the best interpretation and understanding of Christianity. Clearly others who read from their own Faith traditions will disagree with me.
969 posted on 07/18/2005 5:18:23 PM PDT by InterestedQuestioner
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