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To: spunkets
The doctrine of original sin. Where does it arise from? The Jews didn't believe in it. It denies Free will. There's no history of it being doctrinal truth prior to Augustine. God speaks in John 9 regarding the matter at length, but does not acknowledge it, not in the least.

Neither did yours. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ALL HAVE SINNED. What you were saying was 'not all'. Original sin is about being born with a sin nature. If we are not born with original sin then we don't need a Saviour. Right? How does original sin deny free will?

657 posted on 07/16/2005 5:00:38 PM PDT by Jaded (Hell sometimes has fluorescent lighting and a trumpet.)
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To: Jaded
"Original sin is about being born with a sin nature."

That's right. Now see Ezekiel 18 in the OT and John 9 in the NT. Tell me, from where in those 2 does original sin come from and why was it elucidated.

"How does original sin deny free will?"

Consider "born with a sin nature." Man was created in the image and likeness of God. Original sin results in no Freedom whatsoever, only the propensity to sin. It's illogical, both Ezekiel 18 and John 9 refute it.

"If we are not born with original sin then we don't need a Saviour. Right?

No. God came to teach. That teaching was the way to salvation. Here's what He said:
Luke 16:19-31
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"

"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

" "He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Note Abraham lives and so does Lazarus. He promised the Sign of Jonah, which is the Holy Spirit. Salvation depends on not rejecting the Holy Spirit. Would it be better if He never came to teach who He was?

667 posted on 07/16/2005 6:04:43 PM PDT by spunkets
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