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To: mike182d; ohhhh
Re: The bible teaches many principles contrary to catholic doctrinee

"Name one.

The doctrine of original sin. Where does it arise from? The Jews didn't believe in it. It denies Free will. There's no history of it being doctrinal truth prior to Augustine. God speaks in John 9 regarding the matter at length, but does not acknowledge it, not in the least.

John 9:1-40

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" Some claimed that he was. Others said, "No, he only looks like him." But he himself insisted, "I am the man."

"How then were your eyes opened?" they demanded.

He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."

"Where is this man?" they asked him.

"I don't know," he said.

They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."

Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet." The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. "Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"

"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ[a] would be put out of the synagogue. That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."

A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God," they said. "We know this man is a sinner."

He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"

Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?"

He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"

Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses! We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from."

The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.

Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."

Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."

Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Not a hint of original sin from God, only from the empty accusations in anger from the Pharisee. It's not even contained in Romans 5:12-14, because all that's contained in it is the fact that the first man sinned, that sin entered the world, because he had done so and that folks would die according to what was given in Gen 3:19:

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

God did not apply the sin of Adam to anyone else. It applied to Adam and Eve, because it was they that sinned, no one else. The conditions imposed on Adam and Eve apply to everyone else, because they are the progeners of man. The guilt of sin does not follow. The essence of man, as He was created in the image and likeness of God, was never broken with the first sin.

My finding is that the doctrine is a fundamentally unfair example of a flawed concept of justice and is in direct contradiction to God's justice. In particular John 9 refutes it completely! God holds Gen 1:26-27 exactly w/o change and acknowledges that in John 10:31-39
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[Psalm 82:6]? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

God's gift was Free will w/o exception. Any guilt of sin is due to an individual's own choice, not that of some other person. All men are not bound with the guilt of attempting eternal life by eating the fruit of the tree. Some choose to eat the bread of life. In fact God told them to pray for it, "give us this day our daily bread." The "bread" is not nutrition for your body, it's the sign of Jonah. You were given the other "bread" when Adam and Eve got their's and were told how they would obtain it. That's Christ centered, not vain deceit, tradition of men, or something from the rudiments of the world.

Romans 5:12-14 (for ref and futher comment)
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

How did death reign from the time of Adam to Moses?

Matt 22:29-32Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[Exodus 3:6]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Just as the choice to eat the bread of the tree, or that of the Holy Spirit applied to Adam, it applies to all men. The death that reigned is death and condemnation according to Matthew 12:32,
" Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The death and condemnation did not include changing the essential nature of man that was created. God called His creation good{Gen] and John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. God rendered conditions to man, He did not what was and alter the original gifts.

Romans 5:18-19Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

God's act of righteousness was coming here to teach, regardless of what He knew the negative consequences were. The positive consequences infinitely outweighed the negative. What Adam taught was self centered gratification to escape consequence, and disregard for all that was rightfully not his.

Col 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

In fact, Canon 1 from the Council of Orange, in 529AD which first declared the doctrine of original sin, is the first error that contradicts God both in the Gospels as above and in Ezekiel 18. They do so by flat out rejection of Ezekiel 18 and the Gospels.

Here is Canon 1:
CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).

Here is Ezekiel 18 Where is the sin of Adam?

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

" 'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

"Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right.

He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period.

He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.

He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. [a] He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man.

He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD.

"Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things (though the father has done none of them): "He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor's wife.

He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things.

He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

"But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife.

He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.

He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

"Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Each one according to his ways, hischoices, according to God in Matt 12:32.

635 posted on 07/16/2005 2:28:03 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets
Sorry spunkets, but I couldn't slog through all that.

Was it ALL about the denial of original sin?

What is your idea/conception of original sin?

637 posted on 07/16/2005 2:36:22 PM PDT by iconoclast (If you only read ONE book this year, make sure it's Colonel David Hunt's !!!)
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To: spunkets

Gee I guess that's why when a friend's 6 year old had open heart surgery, her pastor refused to put him on a public prayer list. He must have not had any sin because he was afflicted. Thanks for clearing that up, I'll pass it along.

At the time the minister told her he couldn't put the child's name on the congregation's list because he was unsaved.


650 posted on 07/16/2005 4:15:27 PM PDT by Jaded (Hell sometimes has fluorescent lighting and a trumpet.)
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