The works being done are those in the nations who were not born again by the Spirit and who will be judged on their works. Some say they will all go to Hell, but I have no such expectation. You will recall I differentiated between believers who are the church and in who’s light the nations will walk in eternity.
Good works are rewarded with eternal life if Jesus so decides among those in the nations. This is not fundamentalist theology, just mine. I believe most fundamentalist would say that anyone who does not believe in Jesus and who does not have saving faith would be cast into Hell.
I agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit precipitates all our “good works”.
I understand your definition of “subjective redemption”, but since neither the term nor the meaning can be found in scripture you will understand why although I think it is a great idea, I can not accept it without scriptural proof, and I’m not talking about one or two verses. I’m saying that from Genesis to Revelation, with the exclusion of the apocrypha, which is not in my bible, the concept is foreign to me.
You said we need Christ’s help to save us. I would have simply said that without Christ we can not be saved, whether it be by faith in Him or as a result of His final judgment.
I maintain that our works will not be judged for the purpose of separating the goats from the sheep, we are children of God so we are neither goats nor sheep. There are no Christians in the nations being judged.
Matthew 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
He doesn’t actually separate sheep and goats; he separates nations in the way one might separate the sheep from the goats.
Even cities will be judged: Matthew 10:14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matthew 11:22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Matthew 11:24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
We are in Christ as you stated, which is to say that we belong to Him. He has purchased us with Hid Blood. I would say that the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and He is ours for the asking:
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ephesians 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
I would say that God will not analyze what we did during our lives.
You said: When you mean "judgment", do you mean that Jesus will not "analyze" what we did during our lives? Because of Christ our sins are separated from us as far as the east is from the west.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:34-Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Christ will intercede for us [you and I] before the Father. Because we are in Christ we have already been judged worthy and blameless. That is the love that God has for us that no matter what we may do, IF we are His children, we will not suffer punishment. Christ's death was sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Some say that our good works store up treasures in Heaven for us. I’m not so sure of this theology.
You also said: Our faith as expressed through love?
Proverbs 8:35-For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Or: All they who love me love eternal life.
John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
You asked: Do all Christians get a free pass into heaven?
Absolutely not. We were bought with a price: Christ death, suffering, and reserection.
1 Corinthians 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 7:22- For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. 23Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 24Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
We serve God here on earth, being free from the penalty of sin which is eternal damnation. We do not serve the world as the ungodly do. We abide with God. Which as you know is not easy work for man here on earth. No it’s not a free pass, I can assure you, it is not free, and it is not easy being a good Christian. I have my moments believe me. I fail often, but then I have the joy knowing that nothing can separate me from the love of my Father in Heaven.
You said: Catholics believe in an integration with Jesus - who allows us to achieve the dictates of the Sermon. I can’t say that I am able to achieve the dictates of the Sermon, no matter how hard I try. But I am redeemed by the Blood of Christ so that whatever I do that is worthy of death, I will not suffer, and I cannot boast of the good that I do because it is the Spirit that leads me.
Romans 3:22-Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I apologize for not being a better teacher, but teaching is not my calling. I am merely an advocate, and you do not require advocacy, since I know with reasonable assurance you are my Christian brother. I trust that you are true to your faith, sincere in your teachings, and you have been generously tolerant when I state my disagreement.
I do not believe that it is necessary to pass a theological test to merit the love of God. He knows our hearts and is just. We have nothing to fear knowing that our Creator is loving and fair.
Your Brother in Christ, I remain in Him, for Him, and by Him.
Street_Lawyer
Good morning,
I have so much to say, but I will try to confine myself to two subjects. I am a bit confused on your last post, so please correct me if I am wrong.
You seem to say that Christians will not be subject to judgment? Your interpretation of Mt. 25 is interesting. Only the "nations" will be judged, not Christians? Is that correct? Christians will not be subject to judgment?
From my take on the totality of Scripture and Tradition, I don't get that indication that Christians will avoid this, that we will totally rely on Christ's work without God taking into account our own actions. The picture of God as "Judge" is prominent in the contexts of CHRISTIANS on the verge of sin.
Brothers, do not slander one another...There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. James 4:11
You, too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against one another, brothers, or YOU WILL BE JUDGED. James 5:9
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverant fear. 1 Peter 1:17
You have come to God the judge of ALL men. Hebrews 12:23
I (John) saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. John 20: 12-13
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10
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Now, I imagine that you may say that all of this merely determines our status in heaven. These deeds will not determine whether we enter heaven or hell, but merely what place we sit at the table. Is this true?
If so, this assumes that these passages speaking of judging an individual's bad works are not referring to sin. Therefore, such theology must assume a distinction between "sin" and "bad works", since the Christian who says that they have already been justified and forgiven of sin by faith alone in Christ, cannot be judged for sin without creating a severe contradiction.
There is a flaw in this line of thought, however. Scripture NEVER makes such a distinction between sin and bad works. Every time bad works are mentioned, it is in the context of sin. Those who make such claims are made on purely arbitrary grounds without any Scriptural evidence. Since "Protestant" theology demands that a Christian not be judged for sins, the only possible means to avoid the eventuality of his judgment for sins is to categorize his bad deeds as something other than sin. Paul says "everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). James says "anyone who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins" (James 4:17).
Those who refuse to do God's Will sins. Let's look at an example, in 1 Cor, chapter 1-4. They deal specifically with the sinful actions of Christians in Corinth. Throughout, he chides those who set up false allegiances. Paul points out the sins of "jealousy and quarelling" among Christians, saying, "you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarelling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? (1 Cor 3:3). This is the context of 1 Cor 3:15, when "the fire tested works" are directly related to the Christians' quarelling and jealousy. Paul tells them their works will be tested in fire (judgment). His warning of a judgment for works (by Christians at Corinth) has something to do with the divisive disturbances going on in the church there. Paul sees quarelling and jealousy as SIN. In 1 Cor 3:12, he asks "Have they (teachers who are watering down the gospel) been building with gold, silver and costly stones, or have they been building with wood, hay, and straw?" Paul implies that the jealousy and quarelling that resulted are subject to judgment for such false building upon a false gospel. The climax, 1 Cor 3:15, says that some will be judged and yet still be saved. On the other hand, he warns that some will receive God's ultimate punishment of destruction. 1 Cor 3:17 says "If anyone destroys God's Temple, God will DESTROY HIM; For God's Temple is sacred; and you (plural) are that Temple.
It is PRECISELY because of the Corinthian's SINS that God could ultimately "destroy" them for destroying His Church.
The same argument can be made in Romans 14. The Romans have exhibited just as much potential of "destroying the Temple of God" as the Corinthians, and they too will "be destroyed" if they persist. Paul tells them of their various sins of dissension and jealousy, "gratifying their sinful nature". It is only under this context, sin, that we can understand Paul saying "For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. So then, each of us shall give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:10-12). Again, Christians are not excluded from God judging our actions.
To continue, Paul writes "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" (2 Cor 5:10). The verse before, Paul says "we make it our goal to PLEASE Him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it". The NT strongly emphasizes "pleasing the Lord". Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is the beginning of our quest to please God. After faith, we continue to obey Him, even as Paul says of Abraham "by faith, he obeyed" (notice, the whole of Hebrews 11 talks about faith as an action, a work of obedience to God's will). Paul says the same in 2 Cor 5:10. We must please God (by faith and obedience) while in the body because someday, we must all stand before His judgment seat.
If we are not pleasing to the Lord, we face the fate of the Jews in 1 Cor 10:5 "God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert". This whole passage discusses the NECESSITY of perserverence, as does Hebrews Chapter 3-4.
My second "comment" is related to the first. You say that the Bible does not mention anything about subjective redemption. I beg to differ. EVERY single book, with the exception of Philemon, discusses, in some way, the suspension of the outcome of our final destiny based on the duration and degree of our faith and obedience. There is OVERWHELMING evidence that a believer can fall from salvation once possessed. Thus, Christ's objective redemption DOES NOT guarantee our own particular salvation. There MUST be a subjective redemption involved, then.
Just in the book of Matthew, there are :
7:21-23;
10:22,28,33
24:12-13
9:43
10:21-23
13:22
I have previously done this work, so I am prepared to list the DOZENS of verses that discuss the possibility of falling away. Again, if one can fall away, then there must be something more than Christ's objective redemption. Otherwise, ALL men would be saved. Scripture is clear that some will not be saved. Christ's action opens the door for us. We are not pushed through it unwillingly. WE (as an integrated person in Christ) must then walk through it by faith and obedience to God's will - a faith working through love.
And an aside...
"I can’t say that I am able to achieve the dictates of the Sermon"
I doubt that. You are not "poor in Spirit"? You are not "meek"? Have you ever prayed for an "enemy"? God does not expect perfection from us. Holiness comes in degrees while on earth. If I can "turn the other cheek" (with God's grace), if I can change my outlook and attitude on life, anyone can. Jesus presents a teaching to strive for. With His graces, we can achieve it, as God can do all (and He abides in us, doesn't He - remember the Incarnation? I told you it was critical to understanding Scriptures)
I hope I have not seemed harsh by pointing out the fallacy of the idea that Christians are not judged for what we do. I humbly present the above arguments to you to show you that there is another way of looking at the Scriptures, one that has been in effect for 2000 years.
"If I were trying to win man's approval, I surely would not be serving Christ" Gal 1:10
Brother in Christ