Posted on 07/15/2005 11:29:25 AM PDT by nypokerface
I'm aware of all that, but.........
The head of the Christian church is Jesus Christ, a Jew.
Peter was.....a Jew.
Paul was.......a Jew.
Don't you think that it is at least a little ironic that Peter was on the side of Christian converts having to first become "Jewish" and Paul, who was an extremely devout and educated Jew, was on the other side and ultimately prevailed?
Yet the Catholic Church considers that Peter was the first Pope. I think that is ironic as all get out.
"Don't you think that it is at least a little ironic that Peter was on the side of Christian converts having to first become "Jewish" and Paul, who was an extremely devout and educated Jew, was on the other side and ultimately prevailed?"
I think you are mistaking Peter for James.
I suggest that you read Peter's speech after his vision at Acts 10:34-47. In the end, Peter says "Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people (Cornelius and others), who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have? HE ordered them baptized..." Peter certainly did not oppose doing away with the requirement of circumcision, as Peter also defended the decision to remove the requirement on Gentiles in Acts 15, as well.
Regards
Don't forget that Peter is a Catholic only in retrospect--and only according to the Catholic Church. There are many scholars who believe that apostolic groups existed in the early centuries A.D. apart from the Catholic Church. As the Catholic Church grew in power and influence, some of these groups--the Waldensians, for instance--were viciously persecuted and driven from populated areas. It's really nonsense to claim that all first-century Christians were Catholic.
“It's really nonsense to claim that all first-century Christians were Catholic”
Waldensians were not first century, or even first millennium.
The Waldensians were followers of Peter Waldo , a Christian sect believing in poverty and austerity, and were founded around 1173.
I suggest you try to find the three volume set, “A History of the Church” by Phillip Hughes. Very interesting reading.
Good day. I hope all is well with you.
I will try to focus on only a couple of points. If you want to cover something that I didn't mention, feel free to bring it up.
"Since I believe that Christians will not be judged on their works, but will be justified by their continued faith in Christ who has the power to save us and cleans us of all sins and therefore we will not be condemned to Hell, the final judgment is for those who are not covered by the Blood of Christ and who will have to stand before Him and He will then separate the goats from the sheep."
Interesting that you use "goats and sheep", refering to Matt 25. Where I differ on you is emphasis on "I believe that Christians will not be judged on their OWN works..." You mention that we are saved by faith, but then, you discuss the separation of the goats from the sheep - naturally, this MUST include, then, works being done. The context of Matt 25 demands that we are to be judged on how we treat others. Thus, I sense a bit of a contradiction. Now, I would like to suggest that we add the word "own" to your quote that I cite above. We will not be saved by our own works. If you read my post on the incarnation, I hope I made it clear that Catholics believe that we are incorporated with the God/Man when we act "in" Christ. Thus, a good work can rightfully be called God's action as well as ours. We are integrated with Christ because of the Incarnation. Only while integrated as such can ANY works have merit. Thus, our OWN works are pointless.
The best Scriptural verse that comes to mind to explain this cooperation/integration is "work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God IS THE ONE WHO, FOR HIS GOOD PURPOSES, WORKS IN YOU BOTH TO DESIRE AND TO WORK" (Phil 2:12-13). The smaller letters show WE have a responsibility to help achieve our salvation, while the cap letters show that God is working within us the desire and ability to do so. We cannot do anything of merit without Christ and the Spirit.
This is what Catholics would refer to as subjective redemption - applying the Work of Christ's Paschal Mystery to our own particular person. I believe we can both agree that Christ's objective redemption will NOT save all men - as some will refuse. Thus, man has free will. Agreeing with Luther that we have no free will says that our human nature is totally corrupt - and denies the incarnation.
How? Because God could not possibly unite with our nature, our humanity, if we are totally corrupt. Yet, we cannot save ourselves, we have been wounded and need Christ's help to save us. By saying with the Church that we are integrated with Christ's Body, by saying we are in Christ, we say that Christ has entered our nature - not just superficially - and enables us to do meritorious works, because of the actions of the God/Man, who is both Man and God. Our nature, then, united with the nature of God, can do works of value. We cannot initiate, but only cooperate, as Augustine says.
"But the believer will not stand before Christ in judgment: Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight"
This would then deny all of the verses that say we will be judged on what we do - for example, Matt 25. It is one of the most common themes of the Bible. I think the above verse is referring more to the fact that we (believers) will not be judged negatively, into eternal damnation, if we are in Christ.
"Christ had to come to pay for our sins so that we would not face judgment."
When you mean "judgment", do you mean that Jesus will not "analyze" what we did during our lives? Our faith as expressed through love? Or do you mean that we will not fail judgment? Do all Christians get a free pass into heaven? How does one say that above statement, but then does not believe in automatic salvation? Please explain, because it sounds contradictory.
"The Sermon on the Mount established an impossible task for man to achieve"
For man, it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. Again, Catholics believe in an integration with Jesus - who allows us to achieve the dictates of the Sermon. Of course, we will occasionally rebel, but it is possible to love our enemies, to be poor in spirit, etc., through the Spirit moving us.
As you can see, understanding the incarnation will go a long way to understanding the Scriptures better - as I believe Protestant theology is contradictory in some sense regarding salvation and good works. I point you to my post before this one, which thoroughly explains the implications of believing in the incarnation to the fullest.
Thanks again for your questions,
Brother in Christ
The works being done are those in the nations who were not born again by the Spirit and who will be judged on their works. Some say they will all go to Hell, but I have no such expectation. You will recall I differentiated between believers who are the church and in who’s light the nations will walk in eternity.
Good works are rewarded with eternal life if Jesus so decides among those in the nations. This is not fundamentalist theology, just mine. I believe most fundamentalist would say that anyone who does not believe in Jesus and who does not have saving faith would be cast into Hell.
I agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit precipitates all our “good works”.
I understand your definition of “subjective redemption”, but since neither the term nor the meaning can be found in scripture you will understand why although I think it is a great idea, I can not accept it without scriptural proof, and I’m not talking about one or two verses. I’m saying that from Genesis to Revelation, with the exclusion of the apocrypha, which is not in my bible, the concept is foreign to me.
You said we need Christ’s help to save us. I would have simply said that without Christ we can not be saved, whether it be by faith in Him or as a result of His final judgment.
I maintain that our works will not be judged for the purpose of separating the goats from the sheep, we are children of God so we are neither goats nor sheep. There are no Christians in the nations being judged.
Matthew 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
He doesn’t actually separate sheep and goats; he separates nations in the way one might separate the sheep from the goats.
Even cities will be judged: Matthew 10:14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matthew 11:22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Matthew 11:24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
We are in Christ as you stated, which is to say that we belong to Him. He has purchased us with Hid Blood. I would say that the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and He is ours for the asking:
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ephesians 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
I would say that God will not analyze what we did during our lives.
You said: When you mean "judgment", do you mean that Jesus will not "analyze" what we did during our lives? Because of Christ our sins are separated from us as far as the east is from the west.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:34-Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Christ will intercede for us [you and I] before the Father. Because we are in Christ we have already been judged worthy and blameless. That is the love that God has for us that no matter what we may do, IF we are His children, we will not suffer punishment. Christ's death was sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Some say that our good works store up treasures in Heaven for us. I’m not so sure of this theology.
You also said: Our faith as expressed through love?
Proverbs 8:35-For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Or: All they who love me love eternal life.
John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
You asked: Do all Christians get a free pass into heaven?
Absolutely not. We were bought with a price: Christ death, suffering, and reserection.
1 Corinthians 6:20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 7:22- For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. 23Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 24Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
We serve God here on earth, being free from the penalty of sin which is eternal damnation. We do not serve the world as the ungodly do. We abide with God. Which as you know is not easy work for man here on earth. No it’s not a free pass, I can assure you, it is not free, and it is not easy being a good Christian. I have my moments believe me. I fail often, but then I have the joy knowing that nothing can separate me from the love of my Father in Heaven.
You said: Catholics believe in an integration with Jesus - who allows us to achieve the dictates of the Sermon. I can’t say that I am able to achieve the dictates of the Sermon, no matter how hard I try. But I am redeemed by the Blood of Christ so that whatever I do that is worthy of death, I will not suffer, and I cannot boast of the good that I do because it is the Spirit that leads me.
Romans 3:22-Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I apologize for not being a better teacher, but teaching is not my calling. I am merely an advocate, and you do not require advocacy, since I know with reasonable assurance you are my Christian brother. I trust that you are true to your faith, sincere in your teachings, and you have been generously tolerant when I state my disagreement.
I do not believe that it is necessary to pass a theological test to merit the love of God. He knows our hearts and is just. We have nothing to fear knowing that our Creator is loving and fair.
Your Brother in Christ, I remain in Him, for Him, and by Him.
Street_Lawyer
Good morning,
I have so much to say, but I will try to confine myself to two subjects. I am a bit confused on your last post, so please correct me if I am wrong.
You seem to say that Christians will not be subject to judgment? Your interpretation of Mt. 25 is interesting. Only the "nations" will be judged, not Christians? Is that correct? Christians will not be subject to judgment?
From my take on the totality of Scripture and Tradition, I don't get that indication that Christians will avoid this, that we will totally rely on Christ's work without God taking into account our own actions. The picture of God as "Judge" is prominent in the contexts of CHRISTIANS on the verge of sin.
Brothers, do not slander one another...There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. James 4:11
You, too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against one another, brothers, or YOU WILL BE JUDGED. James 5:9
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverant fear. 1 Peter 1:17
You have come to God the judge of ALL men. Hebrews 12:23
I (John) saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. John 20: 12-13
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10
____
Now, I imagine that you may say that all of this merely determines our status in heaven. These deeds will not determine whether we enter heaven or hell, but merely what place we sit at the table. Is this true?
If so, this assumes that these passages speaking of judging an individual's bad works are not referring to sin. Therefore, such theology must assume a distinction between "sin" and "bad works", since the Christian who says that they have already been justified and forgiven of sin by faith alone in Christ, cannot be judged for sin without creating a severe contradiction.
There is a flaw in this line of thought, however. Scripture NEVER makes such a distinction between sin and bad works. Every time bad works are mentioned, it is in the context of sin. Those who make such claims are made on purely arbitrary grounds without any Scriptural evidence. Since "Protestant" theology demands that a Christian not be judged for sins, the only possible means to avoid the eventuality of his judgment for sins is to categorize his bad deeds as something other than sin. Paul says "everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). James says "anyone who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins" (James 4:17).
Those who refuse to do God's Will sins. Let's look at an example, in 1 Cor, chapter 1-4. They deal specifically with the sinful actions of Christians in Corinth. Throughout, he chides those who set up false allegiances. Paul points out the sins of "jealousy and quarelling" among Christians, saying, "you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarelling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? (1 Cor 3:3). This is the context of 1 Cor 3:15, when "the fire tested works" are directly related to the Christians' quarelling and jealousy. Paul tells them their works will be tested in fire (judgment). His warning of a judgment for works (by Christians at Corinth) has something to do with the divisive disturbances going on in the church there. Paul sees quarelling and jealousy as SIN. In 1 Cor 3:12, he asks "Have they (teachers who are watering down the gospel) been building with gold, silver and costly stones, or have they been building with wood, hay, and straw?" Paul implies that the jealousy and quarelling that resulted are subject to judgment for such false building upon a false gospel. The climax, 1 Cor 3:15, says that some will be judged and yet still be saved. On the other hand, he warns that some will receive God's ultimate punishment of destruction. 1 Cor 3:17 says "If anyone destroys God's Temple, God will DESTROY HIM; For God's Temple is sacred; and you (plural) are that Temple.
It is PRECISELY because of the Corinthian's SINS that God could ultimately "destroy" them for destroying His Church.
The same argument can be made in Romans 14. The Romans have exhibited just as much potential of "destroying the Temple of God" as the Corinthians, and they too will "be destroyed" if they persist. Paul tells them of their various sins of dissension and jealousy, "gratifying their sinful nature". It is only under this context, sin, that we can understand Paul saying "For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. So then, each of us shall give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:10-12). Again, Christians are not excluded from God judging our actions.
To continue, Paul writes "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" (2 Cor 5:10). The verse before, Paul says "we make it our goal to PLEASE Him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it". The NT strongly emphasizes "pleasing the Lord". Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is the beginning of our quest to please God. After faith, we continue to obey Him, even as Paul says of Abraham "by faith, he obeyed" (notice, the whole of Hebrews 11 talks about faith as an action, a work of obedience to God's will). Paul says the same in 2 Cor 5:10. We must please God (by faith and obedience) while in the body because someday, we must all stand before His judgment seat.
If we are not pleasing to the Lord, we face the fate of the Jews in 1 Cor 10:5 "God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert". This whole passage discusses the NECESSITY of perserverence, as does Hebrews Chapter 3-4.
My second "comment" is related to the first. You say that the Bible does not mention anything about subjective redemption. I beg to differ. EVERY single book, with the exception of Philemon, discusses, in some way, the suspension of the outcome of our final destiny based on the duration and degree of our faith and obedience. There is OVERWHELMING evidence that a believer can fall from salvation once possessed. Thus, Christ's objective redemption DOES NOT guarantee our own particular salvation. There MUST be a subjective redemption involved, then.
Just in the book of Matthew, there are :
7:21-23;
10:22,28,33
24:12-13
9:43
10:21-23
13:22
I have previously done this work, so I am prepared to list the DOZENS of verses that discuss the possibility of falling away. Again, if one can fall away, then there must be something more than Christ's objective redemption. Otherwise, ALL men would be saved. Scripture is clear that some will not be saved. Christ's action opens the door for us. We are not pushed through it unwillingly. WE (as an integrated person in Christ) must then walk through it by faith and obedience to God's will - a faith working through love.
And an aside...
"I can’t say that I am able to achieve the dictates of the Sermon"
I doubt that. You are not "poor in Spirit"? You are not "meek"? Have you ever prayed for an "enemy"? God does not expect perfection from us. Holiness comes in degrees while on earth. If I can "turn the other cheek" (with God's grace), if I can change my outlook and attitude on life, anyone can. Jesus presents a teaching to strive for. With His graces, we can achieve it, as God can do all (and He abides in us, doesn't He - remember the Incarnation? I told you it was critical to understanding Scriptures)
I hope I have not seemed harsh by pointing out the fallacy of the idea that Christians are not judged for what we do. I humbly present the above arguments to you to show you that there is another way of looking at the Scriptures, one that has been in effect for 2000 years.
"If I were trying to win man's approval, I surely would not be serving Christ" Gal 1:10
Brother in Christ
The incarnation:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
You said: there is some mystical unity between the believer and Jesus Christ.
When Catholics use the term “mystical” what does it mean?
If I do not comment on what you have said then you will know that I agree. I do this for economy of time.
If you will allow me to digress from your generous offer to teach me about the incarnation. You quoted Chapter 8 of Romans, which happens to be one of the most important verses in my conversion to the belief in salvation by faith and I would ask that you allow me to go through my thinking process regarding these verses when I first considered them as an infant in Christ:
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
My life was consumed with the fear of damnation because no matter how I tried to please God by following his commandment, I failed. When I read that there is “no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” I wanted to know exactly what this phrase meant. I had no idea what the rest of the verse meant since I was not born again at the time, although I did believe in my mind that Christ is my savior, I didn’t really know exactly what that meant, nor how it might change my life. I now know that walking after the Spirit and not the flesh is the penalty I serve as a child of God. I do it out of love for our Creator, out of love for our Redeemer, and not to store up credits for myself to be used on final judgment day.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
I am not actually free from violating the law of sin, but I am free from its penalty, which is death, praise be to Jesus who paid that penalty for me. I still have to struggle against the desires of the flesh, but prayer and supplication give me strength and hope that I might not sin again. I still fail, but now I am no longer afraid of the consequences.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The law, which is “go and sin no more”, can make us pure, but as Paul speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit said that we have all sinned.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Continuing with Romans 8
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
This conforms to your theology of good works, but not by our contributing to our own salvation in doing so, but we do so because we who are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are led by the Spirit and not by our base human nature wherein we were born of water.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Only those who are led by the Spirit can please God, and since I do not believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit roaming the world as the devil does, since I believe that the Spirit is given only to those who believe and are saved, non-believers can not please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Note that the Spirit of God dwells in the believer. I know of no verse that holds that the Spirit exists corporately, although I suspect theologians have concluded as such. If that is the case then my understanding of scripture differs with theirs.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Our spirit will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Continuing with Romans 8
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ie: the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. This is what some misinterpret as a “free pass”. I have suggested that believers who have the Spirit will not die the second death. Those about whom Paul writes are alive, so my understanding of “live” is eternal life.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The sons of God in my theology are those who are saved by the shed Blood of Christ, and who have accepted his free gift of salvation:
Ephesians 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Hopefully the forgoing well-used and tired verses have new meaning to you now?
Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Continuing with Romans 8
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
I thank God for His mercy and removing the fear of bondage from me.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
As the sinner I am, I know that God’s love for me is limitless and that because He saved me by providing the Lamb of God who paid for my sins, I can call Him Father and I have assurance that I am His adopted child. (Romans 8:22-24
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I pray that the above verse has new meaning to you now?
I’m not acquitted with the term “mystical body” from scripture. Is there a verse or two that explains it’s meaning? Or is it a theological concept that can only be understood but not defined because to define it would not do it justice?
I looked up incarnation: The doctrine that the Son of God was conceived in the womb of Mary and that Jesus is true God and true man. Is this the definition you are using? If I am a continuation of Christ, I have to say that I am not doing a very good job. Which is accounted for in your explanation that the Spirit of God does not drive out our humanity. Once again St. Paul is of assistance to us with this concept:
Romans 7: 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I do not believe that good works are useless, my experience is that good works bring the joy of participating in God’s work on earth. They are the evidence of our faith.
James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I don’t believe that God has joined humanity.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
You said: We do then truly perform divine works worthy of eternal reward, because of Christ's unity with us. I’m ok with the eternal reward part. I know that this is a confusing issue that has to be consistent with everything else we know about salvation. For example:
Revelation 22:11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
If one were to say that the reward here is everlasting life, then it could be said that based upon one’s work it might be granted or withheld. But reward does not necessarily mean eternal life: see:
Matthew 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 10:41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Luke 6:23
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: Here the reward is not Heaven itself. I’m using Heaven synonymously with everlasting life.
I am suggesting that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we must be found to be righteous, but that righteousness need not be achieved by performing good works if we are covered by the Blood of Christ:
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I like Colossians 1 also:
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Which I take to mean is our salvation “unblameable and unreprovable because we are not going to have to pay the penalty of our sins. And as you have suggested upon the condition that we continue in our faith:
23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; I’d like to think that I have not moved away from the hope of the gospel which is Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead as my savior.
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: This verse teaches what you had to say about how our good deeds are really the result of our union with Christ and this verse seems to say that He will continue to perform His work in us until he returns.
Our good works are as a result of the fruits of the Spirit and they serve as a testament to God’s grace in us and they serve the glory of God and as praise for his mercy. So are good works are very important indeed.
11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
As for the divinization of the believer I suspect that any disagreement is must a matter of semantics. I have problems sometimes explaining my theology in my own terms because the terms are not familiar to others. If what you mean by the divine in the Christian is the Holy Spirit then I do not understand why fundamentalists might object. On the other hand I suppose that liberal protestant theology might have strong objection to this concept. But then liberal protestant theology sees no problem with abortion and gay marriage.
In the final analysis I agree in large part with the theology as you have explained it.
Good to hear from you. I hope all is well.
"Mystical" means something that is not entirely explainable. The Orthodox have a better sense of mystery than us Roman Catholics, as "we" have attempted at speculating on the various mysteries. However, in the end, we can never know fully in this life the various wonders of God, such as Trinity, the Incarnation, Relationship of Evil to the Christian, the Eucharist, and so forth. Unlike science, who constantly strive to find mathematical proofs of theories, man can only go so far in discovering the truth of the infinite.
"Chapter 8 of Romans"
Ah, brother, one of my favorite Pauline writings. Especially the end - nothing can separate us from God's love! That is the message we all need to hear in this day and age, as well as 2000 years ago.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Yes. And here, I regret, one can fall into a "fatal" assumption - Once saved/always saved. Once in Christ/Always in Christ. As you well know, we are told to perservere in the faith. Paul time and time again warns Christians of falling - like 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3 and 4. I have also previously quoted the likes of Acts 5:32, and mentioned John's Epistles. And let's not forget Mat 7:21. NOTHING can separate us from God's love...EXCEPT ourselves. And unfortunately, many refuse the cross, the narrow path, even Christians.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Again, I think this is true IF the person REMAINS in Christ. Paul is making the assumption that the Christian will perservere. If he doesn't - as I mentioned in my many citations on the last post, he will be subject to punishment.
I had heard a good summary of Paul's teaching of justification - We inherit salvation freely (as we inherit money from our parents), but we can blow it and turn away from our inheritance (we can disown ourselves from our parents). I think this is a better explanation of BOTH aspects of Pauline writings on the subject - the assurance of salvation/the need to perservere.
If salvation is assured, why be told to perservere? Certainly, we trust that Jesus has done His "part" (Objective). But have we used our free will to desire Jesus' abiding love? Have we shown faith working through love? Faith without love is NOTHING - 1 Cor 13. If this is the case, salvation by faith is meaningless without works of love, correct?
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
I agree with your statements - presuming that the Christian IS in the Spirit! We know we are in the Spirit if we obey Him (Acts 5:32). I particularly see 1 John as refuting the idea that we are always in the Spirit, no matter what we do. Paul, too, (last post had several such citations) saw that people sometimes gave into their fleshy side - jealousy and divisiveness.
"Only those who are led by the Spirit can please God, and since I do not believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit roaming the world as the devil does, since I believe that the Spirit is given only to those who believe and are saved, non-believers can not please God."
I think when Jesus mentions that the Spirit blows where He will (John 3), this means that He will rain grace on whom He desires - God's graces rain on the evil and good alike. Or, the parable of the sower. How can we come to faith without the Spirit? When we were "in sin" before Baptism, a non-believer, how did faith become a reality within you without the Spirit? By restricting the Spirit to only believers, you yourself (nor me) would never have received the grace to repent and ask for the water and the Spirit in Baptism.
As to non-believers not pleasing God, this goes against Romans Chapter 1,2. Even Gentiles have a Law written on their hearts, who do not have the Torah. I think we should differentiate between one who never knows Christ (ignorant), and one who refuses Christ, correct? Isn't this the line of reasoning Jesus uses when He speaks to Nicodemus in John 3?
"I pray that the above verse has new meaning to you now?"
I agree with your line of reasoning, assuming that we are in Christ. When we follow the flesh, we are not in Christ. When we follow the Spirit, we are in Christ, and what you say applies. Your verse from 1 Cor 6:9 shows this. A Christian could potentially become all of those things, correct? Paul would say that they would not inherit eternal life.
"I’m not acquitted with the term “mystical body” from scripture. Is there a verse or two that explains it’s meaning? Or is it a theological concept that can only be understood but not defined because to define it would not do it justice?"
Ephesians chapter 5 describes the unity between Christ and the Church and compares it to the relationship between a wife and a husband (who are one flesh - just as Christ is one flesh with the Church, correct?). Paul calls this a mystery at the end of the chapter, refering to the relationship of the Body of Christ. Hence, the Mystical Body of Christ. It is a mystery (see above)
"Our good works are as a result of the fruits of the Spirit and they serve as a testament to God’s grace in us and they serve the glory of God and as praise for his mercy. So are good works are very important indeed."
Yes, but it is even more, as the numerous verses in the NT (and OT) state - on how Christians will be judged based on their deeds. Recall, faith is a deed, too. (Hebrews 11 has quite a few examples of faith that is working. Faith is not just an intellectual acceptance or a trust in God. It is also a doing of an action - obedience to God. Abraham, Moses, the various prophets, etc...It is a long litany of faith that is working through love and trust in God). And Faith is NOTHING without love (1 Cor 13). Works of Love are not just an added bonus. Paul NEVER negatively speaks of works of Love, just works of the Law.
Faith without Works is dead (James)
Works without Faith is dead (Paul - my adaptation)
The two cannot be separated, and both are required for salvation. I am not familiar with ANY verse that separates Works of Love from Faith. But do not be alarmed, these works of love come from not only ourselves, but from God working within us as the Spirit. (Phil 2:12-13). Praise the Lord that He has shared with us our humanity - AND continues to do so in heaven at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is STILL human! He is still united with us, beginning with the incarnation.
"In the final analysis I agree in large part with the theology as you have explained it."
As I have said before, I think much of the disagreement is in terminology. However, what is important is that we come to the truth, as "God desires for all men to come to the truth", and "the truth will set you free". A person who is able to turn from the world and turn to the way of the cross is a brother indeed.
Brother in Christ
I think I understand your beliefs and it was not exactly what I expected, based upon other Catholic teachings I have read. I would like to make a few observations:
We cannot know what someone else’s position is in Christ, but we can know our own. I have the assurance that I am saved and I pray that I will stay that way. I do not anticipate changing my mind or my love for Jesus.
I’m not sure if the Spirit and Christ are one in purpose. Notice that Christ said if He did not go the “Comforter” could not come, meaning the Holy Spirit.
I know the quality of mercy is not strained in the Merchant of Venice, but I cannot think of a scripture where the grace of God rains on the evil one or ones? I get the impression that God does not recognize the existence of non-believers. It seems to me He sees them as dead already. Dead in their sin, which is non-belief?
I think there definitely is a distinction between one who has not heard the Gospel of Christ and one who has rejected it. But when one who has not heard does evil deed, he will have to account for them since the law is written in his heart. If they do good deeds they do so following the law written in their hearts. These I believe are those who will be cast into Hell or saved on judgment day. Since Christ will be doing the judging, we might even say that Christ saved even those people.
I would not be able to say that every time we sin we are not in Christ, but I do believe that we must persevere in our faith to the end. Sin, in my opinion, does not condemn us. For example my version of a moral sin would be to reject salvation, or to loose faith in Jesus Christ, or to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Ok I understand what you mean by “mystical body” I’m just not used to hearing the Bride of Christ described in those terms.
I do not believe that Christians will be judged on our works. Jesus has redeemed us, but I do believe that the nations will be judged and He will separate the goats from the sheep. All who are in Christ Jesus are his sheep and He will not loose one of us.
Whether faith is a deed is a familiar question. It doesn’t make any difference to me because I am not dogmatic on that subject. I’ll accept either interpretation; however I do not believe our good works can save us, only faith in Jesus is necessary, and if faith is a work and the only exception, I’m ok with that also.
I think of faith being the reason for good works. I would rather say that faith is required and works evidences it. I say this because of my personal experience. If you had said both exist as one, I could have simply agreed. It was the word “required” that changes the meaning for me slightly.
You have given me a good understanding of your Catholic mind. Although not all who identify with a certain religion have a deep understanding of scripture and theology, they are nonetheless going to be "judged", if you if you prefer that word, on whether or not they pass the faith test. I would have to say that faith does not come from reading books on theology, it comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the Word of God.
God bless you and I hope those who need your instruction will find you and follow your example.
Street_Lawyer
"We cannot know what someone else’s position is in Christ, but we can know our own. I have the assurance that I am saved and I pray that I will stay that way. I do not anticipate changing my mind or my love for Jesus."
I think you are correct, we have a relative sense of where we stand with God, if we make the effort to do an "Examination of Conscience" (Catholic term for considering where we have failed or succeeded in our walk with Christ). However, we must be careful of presumption. I think some Protestants (I don't detect this in you) are dangerously close to presumption. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10:12)
"I’m not sure if the Spirit and Christ are one in purpose. Notice that Christ said if He did not go the “Comforter” could not come, meaning the Holy Spirit."'
Here is where we would have to go to Catholic Apostolic Tradition, as seen in the Counciliar Documents of Nicea, Ephesus, Constantinople, and Chalcedon, as Scripture is not clear on this. Catholics use a term called "appropriation" to 'assign' a task to each of the Persons of the Trinity. The Father is the Creator, the Son is the Redeemer, and the Spirit is the Sanctifier. However, because God is One, they are all present in any activity of God! Again, the Trinity is an incredible mystery, we can only hope to touch the surface of its depths.
"I cannot think of a scripture where the grace of God rains on the evil one or ones? I get the impression that God does not recognize the existence of non-believers."
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
(Mat 5:45)"
We believe that God gives everyone the opportunity to be saved. When we die, no one will be able to say "I never was given the chance"! God would not be righteous if He condemned people arbitrarily to eternal damnation, would He?
Also, "(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; (Rom 2:13-15)
From this, we see that God Himself blesses even the Gentile with His Law. Of course, it is not the Mosaic Law, but, upon reflection, I think we can sing with the Psalmster in praise and thanksgiving that God gave them even this "law", as even natural law brings some freedom to people - and the truth will set you free!
I find it difficult to fathom that God can be considered a loving God, who gave His Son's life for humanity's redemption, would confine so many people to hell because they never knew Jesus Christ. Perhaps, as you mention, Gentiles are judged differently, and more is expected from Christians, who have been given the knowledge of Christ. I think God recognizes the sinner - I think of the Parable of the Prodigal Son...but God's judgment demands a response when a person follows the sins of the flesh, when God has given a Law in a person's heart (Romans 2:1 - they have no excuse). I think we agree on how God looks at Gentiles who have never heard about Christ.
"I would not be able to say that every time we sin we are not in Christ, but I do believe that we must persevere in our faith to the end. Sin, in my opinion, does not condemn us."
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1)
"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 John 5:16)
I agree, we are dealing with degrees of separation/unity with Christ. We can sin, but we can return to Christ. Above, John discusses the mortal sin that kills and other sins that do not (which, of course, is where we get our distinction between mortal/venial sin)
"Whether faith is a deed is a familiar question. It doesn’t make any difference to me because I am not dogmatic on that subject. I’ll accept either interpretation; however I do not believe our good works can save us, only faith in Jesus is necessary, and if faith is a work and the only exception, I’m ok with that also."
I don't separate the two. Faith is worthless without love, says Paul (1 Cor 13). If one has faith, one, through the Spirit, does works of love. I think we may agree on this: God will see how much faith we had on earth by looking at our deeds of love (through His unity with us - they are not our deeds alone).
"I would have to say that faith does not come from reading books on theology, it comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the Word of God."
I second that motion. I did lots of reading before my conversion of the heart. Reading does not instill within us a change of heart, a paradigm shift in our attitudes, no matter how much we know. "Knowledge puffs up, love builds up" (1 Cor 8:1). We must also have an experience of the Risen Lord. It must come through the "Word of God" (I am assuming that you mean the Bible, while I would expand this Word to include the Bible and the Apostolic Traditions).
This has been a very good discussion. I truly appreciate it, especially before I begin teaching another class next month. Only by hearing other people's point of view can we grow in knowledge of our own beliefs. It also helps to appreciate that God is more expansive then we sometimes think. In the end, I think God is going to look beyond dogma and look to how people lived their lives.
By the way, to answer a previous question, yes, I have been using the King James Bible, since I thought I was dealing with someone who uses it. I try to use the same Bible that my friend is using when discussing such topics.
Brother in Christ
You are beyond ignorant i fyou think Catholicism isn't a Christian religion.
Thanks for letting me know. I'll keep that in mind.
I never said the Waldensians were first century. I suggest you read more carefully. Note I wrote, "As the Catholic Church grew in power and influence"--clearly post-first century.
Yes, Christ did say, "Upon this rock I will build my church." That Catholics twist and turn this "church" into meaning ONLY the Roman Catholic Church and not the entire Body of Christ is beyond reason and, frankly, reprehensible.
People like you would deny membership in Christ's Body to millions upon millions of the faithful--even missionaries and martyrs, past, present, and future--because they're not Catholic.
"I suggest you read more carefully."
Sorry to disagree, but you should be a bit more careful with your writing.
You wrote “some of these groups--the Waldensians, for instance.” Here, the “these groups” refers back to the “apostolic groups [that] existed in the early centuries A.D” you used in the prior sentence. You then follow this by saying “It's really nonsense to claim that all first-century Christians were Catholic,” furthering the connection to the first century groups.
In addition to the history books, I would recommend "Handbook for Writers" by Lynn Quitman Troyka. (Simon & Schuster)
Simply wanting things to be true to fit your personal theology or writing style does not make them true.
"Upon this rock I will build my church."
Christ wanted us to be one.
“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?” 1 Cor 1:10-13
Let’s pause for moment and think about what this means.
We are to be “perfectly united in mind and thought”. What does this mean to you? Let’s assume it means to believe exactly what Christ taught. Christ is “the Way.” Not one of many ways. If Christ came to bring us salvation, don’t you think He would have put in some mechanism to make sure we know “the Way?”
This mechanism could not have been the Bible. We can’t even agree on what the meaning of the word “is” is, as in “This is my Body”, let alone all the difficult passages of the Bible.
We cannot be one if everyone brings his own version of the Truth. Substitute Luther for Appollos, or Calvin for Paul, or King Henry for Cephas, and you see that the “new” religions and interpretations of scripture that sprang from the reformation are anti-scriptural, and by extension, against the command to be “perfectly united in mind and thought.”
The mechanism had to be a single, visible Church with teaching authority.
Or do you really believe Christ wanted 20,000+ versions of “the Way?”
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