Posted on 07/06/2005 6:24:16 AM PDT by Our_Man_In_Gough_Island
An alliance of former Soviet states and China has urged the US-led coalition in Afghanistan to set a timetable for withdrawing troops from member states. The Shanghai Co-operation Organisation said it continued to support the anti-terror coalition in Afghanistan, which had stabilised the situation.
But in a joint statement the group said the active military phase of the Afghan operation was nearing completion.
Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan host US bases used to back troops in Afghanistan.
About 18,000 coalition forces are in Afghanistan tracking al-Qaeda and Taleban militants.
SHANGHAI CO-OPERATION ORGANISATION
China Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan Russia Tajikistan Uzbekistan At talks in Kazakhstan, the Shanghai group called on the coalition to agree a deadline for ending the temporary use of bases and air space in nearby countries.
Correspondents say the statement appears to reflect increasing concerns that the US is encouraging the overthrow of Central Asia's authoritarian governments.
The statement comes after Kyrgyzstan's leader was ousted in March, and follows Western criticism of the Uzbek authorities for their violent suppression of dissent in eastern Uzbekistan.
Europe's security body, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), said between 300-500 people died when troops fired on a rally in the city of Andijan. Tashkent says 173 died.
"Answer: "Two years after China pulls out of Tibet.""
LOL - That's the first thing that popped in my mind as well!
In the 1990s, having the choice between Taliban or pro-Russian Northern Alliance what would be your choice? Having to chose between Basayev or Putin whom would you chose? Do you approve naming places in Warsaw after Chechen warlords?
About Kosovo, did you side with Serbs or with Albanian Muslims?
Do not believe me. Just answer my questions, please.
"In the 1990s, having the choice between Taliban or pro-Russian Northern Alliance what would be your choice? Having to chose between Basayev or Putin whom would you chose? Do you approve naming places in Warsaw after Chechen warlords? "
You are changing the theme, you are standing with Russia against US, like you stood with Russia against Ukraine and Poland. It has nothing to do with you questions, we could discuss also about “Maryna’s ass” but we wont do that.
Central Asia isn't just Russia's sphere of interest. Not too long ago, it WAS Russia. Unless we want to see every major power on this planet ganging up on us, we will have to accept that.
We already do. The reason the US has not taken out North Korea is that it is China's sphere of interest and we do not want war with China. A foolish power, like the Soviet Union in 1980, tries to be strong everywhere. A wise power is only interested in being strong where it actually matters. And Central Asia does not matter to the US.
I am not changing the subject. You made it into personal attack on me and you are afraid to answer my questions. I do not think that you really have interest of USA in mind, you just hate Russia and you will support any anti-Russian policy whether it is Islamism in Chechnya, or even attacks on friends of Russia like Serbs or Armenians. Such guys like you led Napoleonic France to ruin by encouraging 1812 invasion.
like you stood with Russia against Ukraine and Poland
Do you really thing that Sorosian rainbow revolutions are good for Ukraine and Poland? Your hatred of Russia is blinding you.
Here are my questions again:
"In the 1990s, having the choice between Taliban or pro-Russian Northern Alliance what would be your choice? Having to chose between Basayev or Putin whom would you chose? Do you approve naming places in Warsaw after Chechen warlords? About Kosovo, did you side with Serbs or with Albanian Muslims?"
Your comparison of American debt to China and American debt to the Arabs or Japanese is absurd. All the Saudis and Japanese wanted was to become rich within the Pax Americana. China intends to replace us as the dominant world power. So shrugging off debt to China is ridiculous.
After all, money is just power quantified. The point isn't racking up wads of bills. The point is becoming the fat cat behind the desk with the checkbook who people sell their souls to. The point is becoming the boss, the owner. If China takes Taiwan, and either forces the US to swallow it or cripples the Pacific Fleet in so doing, China becomes the fat cat behind the desk because the balance of power in the world has obviously shifted.
Germany had high tech. But it did not have demographic depth or raw materials.
The Soviet Union had demographic depth and raw materials. But its smokestack economy could not adapt to the microchip age.
China has demographic depth and raw materials and high tech. It will be the most formidable adversary we have ever faced. So pushing Russia and India into it's arms by ham fisted clumsiness isn't very bright.
spokojnie Lukasz; popusc troszke:}}}
translation
"I don't think he's changing anything Luke. You guys have to decide on what side you are on. Nonetheless both of you make a point; question is who is right?” thank you/Dzieki
Where is this conflict between Russia and USA?
"In the 1990s, having the choice between Taliban or pro-Russian Northern Alliance what would be your choice?
My attitude at the time was something akin of "a pox on both their houses". Wars between the original alliance members had destroyed Kabul, and I didn't yet know enough about who was who to understand what was happening. When I knew that the Taliban was beginning to "stabilize" the country, I was initially hopeful, in part because they were supported by our "allies" Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
The Northern Alliance I initially equated with Hekmatyar, the psychopath, and my understanding was that they were supported by Iran. Later, somewhere, I saw an interview with Massoud and my opinion changed completely. Also, eventually, the horror stories started coming out about life under the Taliban. So over the course of the decade I shifted from a hopeful attitude toward the Taliban to rooting for the Northern Alliance.
Having to chose between Basayev or Putin whom would you chose?
Easy choice, that one. The harder choice was choosing between Basayev and Yeltsin. At the time of the fall of the Soviet system, I was thrilled to see the Baltic States go free. As far as I knew, the Chechens were Estonians with flavuh. So initially I supported their independence war. I changed sides later based on several things. One, it became apparent that the Soviet system was dead. Two, the Chechens won, but went on fighting. Three, they launched attacks into their neighboring areas, and committed atrocities that were clearly above and beyond any military necessity. Four, the territory was filling up with other foreign muslim fighters, which struck me as bizarre, and unacceptable, since they were attacking across their borders into Russia. And five, they didn't take advantage of their independence to rebuild.
So by the time Putin had taken office, and decided to go and get them, I was on his side.
Post 911, post Beslan, its silly even to ask.
Do you approve naming places in Warsaw after Chechen warlords?
Post 911, post Beslan, its silly even to ask.
About Kosovo, did you side with Serbs or with Albanian Muslims?
I was torn. I saw Milosevic as a die-hard communist, so anyone trying to break away from him I tended to support. Still, it was apparent early on that the KLA was a criminal organization, and not merely an independence movement. So it was like asking if you support independence for some mostly hispanic area of California, but under Mexican Mafia rule.
I favored seeing Milosevic brought down, but I didn't favor seeing the region turned over to Europe's heroin dealers. It seemed an ugly and contrived choice.
Finally, it seems impossible to get a clear feel for what happened in the Ukraine. Depending on which side you believe, including among people here at FR, it was a choice between Soros and the Russian Mafia. So I have preferred to stay out of that argument.
As for the Shanghai group, I would ignore their public remarks. We can't stay in the 'Stans without both Russian help and the permission of the Stans themselves, our position there would be simply untenable. So when we get a serious request to leave, we'll leave. Right now, the Uzbeks have given us a public slap as payback for our request for an investigation. Its a warning not to put our nose in their business. But our presence there is not a threat to Russia, and I doubt they see it as a threat. The moment they do, getting supplies to and from the base will become impossible, and we'll have no choice but to leave. They are just reminding us that we are their with their permission.
thank you all translation
"Let’s get something straight here: first Brezniev decided to deal with Afghanistan as it was another Hungary or Poland or Czechoslovakia; he miscalculated deeply he didn't learn history lessons to well from British. Kremlin decision of full force and everything goes has back fired. US decided to do what is right; slow but with support of others within. You need to understand their tribe mentality once you do it you can move on; US knows this well. Afghanistan is clandestine operation, unlike Iraq it goes by itself.
Lastly, as guests in these nations - if they ask us to leave their sovereign territory what are we to do? Stage a good old fashioned coup? Why should they trust us after some of these 'Stan govts hosted bases and we re payed them with State Dept supported "democratic revolutions".
See what happens when you back the wrong people (9/11)? Live and learn.
PS: The State Dept (or whoever carries out policy in the 'Stans) should learn how to play guest in someone else's home - this is a warning - stop exporting these color coded revolutions - you Americans are playing with fire, kind of warning.
Sigh. You're thinking "cold war" politics. The world today was born on 9-11.
Americans found out that letting dictators terrorize their own so long as they don't interfere with our OWN freedoms was self-contradictory in a world where the most evil, hateful person on Earth was never more than 14 hours away. Those dictatorships BREED terrorists. The new terrorists are coming from the countries of our dictator "allies" and from the countries of tyrants we've dealt closely with: Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, the Mujahadeen, and the West Bank. Those 'Stans with their oppressed and insulated people are the terrorist regimes of tomorrow and our only hope of winning the war is to seed democracy wherever we can.
If it is so obvious, it should not be hard for you to explain what would be American interest to have permanent military presence in Central Asia countries and in trying to eliminate Chinese and Russian influence in that region (extremely futile and pointless variant of Big Game)
In my view it would be costly, harmful, provocative and destabilizing overextension of American power. This would not be in antibody's interest and the least in the interest of America.
In my view you follow a specific attitude present in a faction of Polish opinion dating from beginning of XIX century that Russia is source of all evil and that ANY, ANY anti-Russian action is noble and beneficial to the mankind. Be it Napoleonic invasion of 1812 or Islamist terror based in Caucasus.
This is not to benefit France, peoples of Caucasus or Americans. It is to feed the dreams of revenge and to indulge in the messianic fantasy of poets like Mickiewicz.
Mickiewicz, who was an occult mystic and a international revolutionary, formed large part of Polish psyche. His dream was the world war and revolution: "O wojne powszechna za wolnosc ludow, Prosimy Cie, Panie." ("For the universal/global war for freedom of peoples we pray to you o Lord"). I do not think that Poland gained much from this poet. I rather like Mickiewicz competitor - Zygmunt Krasinski who wrote truly prophetic (predicting world wars, revolutions and moral collapse of the West) masterpiece Nieboska Komedia (Undivine Comedy)
I explained my views. Now is the time for you to answer my questions which I posted several times:
Here are my questions again:
"In the 1990s, having the choice between Taliban or pro-Russian Northern Alliance what would be your choice? Having to chose between Basayev or Putin whom would you chose? Do you approve naming places in Warsaw after Chechen warlords? About Kosovo, did you side with Serbs or with Albanian Muslims?"
In Warsaw there are many people who think that it is a jolly good idea (to name places after Chechen warlords) so it is is not silly thing to ask Lukasz about that.
See: Dudayev will have his own rondo [rotary/circle] in Warsaw :
"Djokhar Dudayev, the Chechen fighter and president of Chechnya, who died tragically, will be the patron of a roundabout on the crossing between the Alley of the Jerusalemites and Popularna Street in Warsaw -- decided the Warsaw city council."
"Using Dudayev's name is a gesture from the Warsaw community which shows that we haven't forgotten that the Chechens have their own rights, said councillor Pawel Turowski."
"Just like we were supported twenty years ago during a state of war, now we also have a moral obligation to support others, who are fighting for their inalienable rights, underlined Turowski."
See also BBC article: Warsaw's Dudayev move irks Moscow
Remember, from 2001-2004, Bush managed to totally marginalize the EU in US-Russian relations, something the EU took 4 years to squirm out of. Ukraine's elections gave them the crack in the door and they pushed through.
After all, we're dealing with the same EU that bribed Russia to sign the Kyoto treaty so that they can now tariff and fine US companies in Europe.
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