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To: Proud_texan
Note that 17% of the prison population is there because of drug related crimes

What a tiny fraction of the prison population! It's over 66% here in America!
The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, 726 per 100,000 of the national population, over two million people, are behind bars! Our nearest competitor is Russia, with 638 per 100,000. Other free nations have considerably lower rates: England is 143, Canada is 116, Germany is 96, and the Netherlands is 123 per 100,000.

Also note that "Possession of up to 30 grams of cannabis is a minor offence. Possession of more than 30 grams is a criminal offence."

You're playin' games with me Tex! One sentence does not a policy make. There are conditions refering to that out of context sentence. These conditions are: no advertising, no sales of hard drugs, no nuisance must be caused, no admittance of and sales to minors (under the age of 18), and no sales exceeding 5 grams of cannabis per transaction. The stock of the Coffeeshop should not exceed 500 grams of cannabis.

Large commercial growers are put out of business whenever they pop up. Farmers who grow a few plants along with their other crops to supply the coffee shops are left alone as are people who grow a few plants for their own personal use.

You also left out of the good ministers report that drug law enforcement is under local control. It is up to local officials whether to enforce drug law or not. The national government does not dictate to local (county here) government that they are required to arrest drug law violaters. It is a very simple system in that if you keep your nose clean they will leave you alone. If you cause a problem they'll toss your worthless butt in the slammer!

There are no federal sentencing guidelines that would kick in for those amounts (220 pounds as I recall).

We are not talking about sentencing guidelines. The 200 lbs you are thinking about was 1 kilo (2.2lbs) and that was decades ago. We have had a zero tolerance policy since the Reagan administration.

There may be state laws that do but I'm sure you're not suggesting that states don't have the right to enact drug laws. Here in Austin less than an ounce gets you a ticket.

BINGO!!!
That is the whole point of this debate. The Constitution gives that right to the states...Not the federal govvernment!

it sounds like they must have a pretty big WoD program to haul in that much dope since Holland is _tiny_

ROFL!
You read the report...You know that is not the case! The Netherlands is a country twice the size of New Jersey with 16 million people. XTC is not popular or a problem in the Netherlands. Most XTC shipments are bound for Germany and France. Their drug seizures are primarily transshipments through the port of Rotterdam bound for other European destinations. The Netherlands is unique in that 33% of their inmates are foreigners, international criminals busted operating through the ports...Trafficers, smugglers and organized crime. The Dutch are the transporters of Europe. Transshipments of goods to smaller airplanes and feeder vessels take place in main-ports. The important main-ports for Europe are Amsterdam Schiphol Airport and the Port of Rotterdam.

They also have an addict care system, free methodone, $20,000 per year per addict cheaper than incarceration. free needles, Could that be why they don't have the Hepatitis C and HIV epidemic that is costing us so much?

the age of consent is 13

Wrong. It is 13 in Spain, not the Netherlands. You could have found that on the same website you referenced. The age of majority is 18 and the age of consent is 16, the same as Australia, Great Britain and Nevada. It is lower in many other western nations. Austria 14, Germany 14 and France 15 for example. In fact, Dutch sex laws are tougher than those here in the states. An American can travel to a country where sex with a 13 year old is legal, and many do. He can return home with no fear of prosecution. If a Dutchman does the same he will be arrested and sent to prison for 8 years when he returns home. From the Dutch website you referenced:
"For inhabitants of the Netherlands it is a severe crime to have sex with a prostitute below 18, or any person below 16, anywhere in the world. If a foreigner has had sex with a prostitute below 18, or any person below 16, anywhere in the world, even if this was legal, if this was done at a time that it was already illegal in the Netherlands, he or she becomes a criminal when immigrating to the Netherlands."

I don't know where you get your information on pre-prohibition peace officers, I don't have any first hand experience that goes that far back, but certianly the post-prohibition cops I knew in the 40's and 50's were, for the most part brutal, often corrupt with very little accountability.

We now have armed men wearing ski masks breaking into homes in the middle of the night. We didn't have that in the peace officer days.

I'd dare say that cops these days are a much better lot than the general population

Very many are. But the gung ho drug warriors have given a bad name to the good ones. Too many people fear the police these days and that is not a good thing.
...
389 posted on 06/05/2005 10:26:46 PM PDT by mugs99
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To: mugs99
I apologize for the tardy reply and thank you for the thoughtful reply. A very nasty what looked like to be a server problem but turned out wasn't took me out of the loop for a couple of days.

Also apologies and a mea cupla for the 13 year old attribution to the wrong county. I sometimes get my European paradises confused.

Perhaps my problem with "legalization" is that I see things in black and white; it's either legal or it's not but it would appear that isn't the case, even in countries where it's "legal".

Given that how do you see legalization? Is it black and white/legal or illegal or is there a limit on the quantity or other limits? An age limit? Until yesterday I would have asked if a state/county could still make it illegal (ala booze) but it looks like the supremo's have decided that (a ruling I don't agree with BTW) is off that table but assuming legalization would you see it that way?

As for twice the size of NJ being large, you forget where I'm from. That'd be tiny (sorry...).

469 posted on 06/07/2005 3:22:58 PM PDT by Proud_texan (We have met the enemy and he is us.)
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