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1 posted on 05/27/2005 12:52:54 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

She needs to be held accountable for the deliberate murder of a 5 year old child.


2 posted on 05/27/2005 12:58:30 PM PDT by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
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To: neverdem

I think we need to stop worrying about why these people murder other people and just execute them. God knows the reason, we can just deal with the deed.


3 posted on 05/27/2005 12:59:39 PM PDT by blueblazes
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To: neverdem
Asked “what [Cromer] was suffering from, if anything,” on the day of the murder, Szasz offered the following opinion based on her records: “She was suffering from the consequences of having lived a life very badly, very stupidly, very evilly.…From the time of her teens, for reasons which I don’t know…whatever she [has] done, she has done very badly. She was a bad student.…She was a bad wife. She was a bad mother. She was a bad employee insofar as she was employable. Then she started to engage [in taking] illegal drugs, then she escalated to illegal assault, and finally she committed this murder.…

I like this guy Szasz!

4 posted on 05/27/2005 1:02:17 PM PDT by American Quilter
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To: neverdem

I have to admit that after at least three decades of reading Szasz and all sorts of anti-psychiatric literature (and libertarian literature as well) I still can't put a dent in Szasz' arguments. He will, I believe, be vindicated thoroughly by history. Most of what they call psychiatry nowadays is a clever sham, a new disguise for old witchcraft.

Psychologically, I firmly believe we have advanced hardly at all since the days our ancestors were swinging in trees. Only styles change, and psychiatry is a style.


5 posted on 05/27/2005 1:02:21 PM PDT by Graymatter
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To: neverdem
“his client killed because she is consumed by schizophrenic paranoia —not hate for blacks.”

Tough. Give her the needle.

6 posted on 05/27/2005 1:02:54 PM PDT by BenLurkin (O beautiful for patriot dream - that sees beyond the years)
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To: neverdem
Going to school, I knew a number of people heading into psychiatric medicine. Quite frankly, I would not trust those people with the care of my mangy dog.

The fact that we give these people free reign to invent a new disease or disorder a week makes me think that as a whole we haven't moved much beyond witch doctors in really understanding what makes people tick.
8 posted on 05/27/2005 1:09:31 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: neverdem

Great article. Thanks.


10 posted on 05/27/2005 1:11:48 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: neverdem
In his contribution to Szasz Under Fire, Ronald Pies, a professor of psychiatry at the Tufts University School of Medicine, cites migraine headaches as an example of a physical condition that is diagnosed based entirely on “the patient’s verbal pronouncements” (complaints of pain, nausea, light flashes, etc.).

I thought they had determined that migraine attacks are associated with distention of blood vessels in the brain, a physical condition. Certainly some of the treatments work by trying to reverse this condition.

11 posted on 05/27/2005 1:13:02 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: neverdem

I cant help but wonder if the killer had been black and had killed a white child would the same pschychiatrist had said the killer wasnt insane.

I do believe this person's hatred of the black race transcends plain bigotry and goes into the realm of the insane.

However having said that, its still no reason not to execute her. She killed a 5 year old Human Being in cold blood and was proud of it. How different is she than a mad dog. Put it to sleep. Take out the brain examine it for rabies and then burn it.


12 posted on 05/27/2005 1:22:45 PM PDT by sgtbono2002
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To: neverdem
Szasz, the iconoclastic psychiatrist famous for rejecting the insanity defense, involuntary commitment, and the very concept of mental illness

My kind of headshrinker!

21 posted on 05/27/2005 1:41:41 PM PDT by GVnana
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To: neverdem
I can assure you, as a deputy prosecutor, that there are a few people out there with actual psychoses who cannot appreciate the wrongfulness of their actions. The difference between these people (very few in number) and others who claim to be mentally ill is huge. For example, a case existed that involved a guy with schizophrenia who attacked his grandmother because "she turned into a witch." The officers who spoke to the guy told me more than once that they believed he really thought that!
23 posted on 05/27/2005 1:45:29 PM PDT by hispanichoosier
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To: neverdem
a significant part of the population is still forcibly treated, whether in mental hospitals, through outpatient commitment, or in drug treatment programs fed by the criminal justice system.

Police, criminals, jails, hospitals, patients, doctors, judges, legislators, all part of the same system, the same bolt of fabric. We need to talk about this "liberty" idea.

30 posted on 05/27/2005 2:18:45 PM PDT by RightWhale (These problems would not exist if we had had a moon base all along)
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To: neverdem

Most "insanity" is just plain maliciousness and misplaced priorities.
I think there is real insanity.
But that is manifested in an inability to function, not crime and mayhem.


34 posted on 05/27/2005 2:40:29 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth...)
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To: neverdem

I would agree with Szasz that something is seriously wrong with the mental health profession, psychiatrists in particular. I wouldn't trust any of their organizations at all. I am also not a fan of mental institutions, having been in one, I found the experience to be totally unhelpful and it was sad seeing the other people there, who seemed more imprisoned than helped.

However, even if there were no psychiatrists at all, there would be people (like myself) whose brains do not function correctly and thus mood, behavior, vision, etc. are all effected. The medications, designed to treat chemical (read: physical) abnormalities in the brain produce tangible results. SOMETHING real and physical is going on.

The brain controls everything about you, including what you see, hear and how you interpret experiences. If there is any malfunction, it can effect what you actually see and hear (hallucinations, voices, etc.), and you really believe that you see and hear these things. I have known schizophrenics (most of whom are not violent). These are not people who would be normal if not for the pesky psychiatrists.

I can accept that there is a lot we don't know about the human brain, unfortunately, Stasz seems to think we know enough to say that people like me are not really as diseased as a person with Parkinson's or diabetes.


37 posted on 05/27/2005 3:47:08 PM PDT by DameAutour
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To: neverdem
There are very few psychiatrists I think are worth a squat. If you are seriously schizophrenic consult a psychiatrist otherwise find encounter groups or AA especially for Axis II disorders. Psychiatrists are among the sickest people I know. If they aren't in AA they are part of the problem. Unlike other problems never go to one who is recently out of medical school.

Most of the mental illness being treated (depression, anxiety, OCD etc) are the end results of the so called Axis II disorders which are effectively untreatable by psychiatry. The exception are the ever growing number of people who are victims of psychiatric medicine.

I fished with a psychiatrist for the last half of the week at a club whom I didn't know was a psychiatrist until he started talking. Some of the horror stories he had to tell were unbelievable. The worst was a teenage girl who came to him on SEVEN different medicines! A total zombie. When he finished with her she was on a placebo dose of Norpramine and living a normal life. It confirmed most of what I saw from casual observation after 20 years in AA.

41 posted on 05/27/2005 5:51:08 PM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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ping to self....


54 posted on 05/27/2005 9:01:39 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Resisting evil is our duty or we are as responsible as those promoting it.)
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To: neverdem

Psychiatry/-ology are PSEUDOSCIENCES.

All murderers should be executed, and their "mental state" should be irrelevant.

Everyone is personally responsible for their actions, PERIOD.

"Mental disorder" is a crock and headshrinkers are the enablers of criminal filth and weakling weenies who can't get their own acts together.

"Anyone who'd go to a psychiatrist needs to have their head examined."
-Groucho Marx

(The ONLY Marxist theory I agree with, hehehe.!)


67 posted on 05/28/2005 6:34:01 AM PDT by Chef Dajuan (Its a pork fat thing!)
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To: neverdem
Is mental illness an insane idea?

That's just crazy.

71 posted on 05/28/2005 6:55:33 AM PDT by Lazamataz (The Republican Party is the France of politics.)
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To: SheLion
There's no reason for you to read the article, I just wanted to let you know that in one man's opinion, we are mentally ill. :^)

"Thomas Szasz (a psychiatrist) says "... smoking, previously considered a habit, had recently been classified as a mental disorder."

If he's correct, maybe we smokers fall under the Americans With Disabiities Act and can therefore light up wherever we want. Hell, maybe we can even sue somebody!

91 posted on 05/28/2005 5:37:35 PM PDT by DumpsterDiver
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To: All

This thread is sad. As these types of threads tend to be.

It's always fun for law and order self-righteous types to proclaim, "Ah Ha, I knew it all along, there is no mental illness, just bad character."

I read lines like, "Everybody knows right from wrong, the "insane" just choose to do the wrong thing!"

An insane person may live in a world where all men with red hair are aliens intent on destroying the earth. To their mind, there is all kinds of evidence to establish this fact. In such a reality, the RIGHT thing to do is save humanity and the earth and KILL the evil aliens. Of course, in the real world, all this person is doing is murdering innocent men with red hair.

No amount of "discipline" and moral hand-wringing is going to convince this person that reality isn't real. It is extremely difficult for someone to prove legal insanity in a court of law and I am not arguing that it should be easier.

I have bipolar disorder. I'm not legally insane. However, my mind frequently creates a world in which I am the worst, most absolutely evil person to ever live. My very existence causes pain and suffering, and such an evil person really needs to be wiped out. There is no hope for such a pathetic person, how can there be? There is no hole to swallow me up. I frequently believe that the best way to save good people (especially my family) from me is for me to die. When I'm in a deep depression, this seems very rational. If this were real, it would make sense. But the way I see the world is not at all how it really is, and it is very, very hard for me to understand this. That I can't trust my own mind.

I've been this way since I was five years old.

Is my character bad? I'm sure there are people who believe that, when they see that I don't work and sometimes just lie awake in bed all night and all day. Anything negative people have to say about me I take on as real. It's just another reason for me to die.

The movie "A Beautiful Mind" contains a lot of scenes trying to demonstrate how for a person with severe mental illness, REALITY isn't REAL. Imagine someone telling you that you never had the job you thought you worked at for years and you didn't have a roommate in college when you can recall a thousand memories of him.

I take comfort in my strong faith that God can see the heart, and he knows just how imperfect we are, and that includes our brains.


95 posted on 05/29/2005 2:12:08 PM PDT by DameAutour
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