[Sam Cree]

Republicanprofessor, I am not at all willing to concede that the Manet reclining nude is less "realistic" than the Titian "Venus," except in Titian's more skillfull modeling. Titian's figure is way out of proportion - in spite of his more refined brushwork, his figure is less realistic than Manet's on the basis of drawing, surprised as I am at myself to say such a thing.

"he would paint her flatly, as if in real light, and not with the veiled allusions of the past."

I disagree that real light gives a flat appearance, quite the contrary. Photographs give a flat appearance though, although some photograpers manipulate this in the darkroom, pushing the darks and lights. I understand that the Impressionists went for the flat appearance in an effort to portray realism through impressions of light and color, rather than strict representation. Did they also have some colors that were unavailable to the old masters? Of course, IMO, all artists, even the old masters, have altered reality in one way or another in order to portray a personal reality that they wished to share with others.

Homer is one of my favorites, I far prefer him to anyone else in your post - he catches a reality that, as an outdoorsman and former professional seaman, I can seriesly identify with.

From what few actual works by Titian I have seen, portraiture was something at which he excelled, though I believe Anthony Van Dyke has been the real master at that.

[Republicanprofessor]

I disagree that real light gives a flat appearance...I understand that the Impressionists went for the flat appearance in an effort to portray realism through impressions of light and color, rather than strict representation. Did they also have some colors that were unavailable to the old masters?

The Impressionists outdoor colors were new, and new in tubes, so they could go outside. Manet's works, in 1863, feel very much like studio works. There is no sense of real light on the Dejeuner lady. The dappled sense of light will develop by 1874 in the work of Monet, Renoir and others.

So, I agree with you. Manet doesn't feel "real" to me. But, as you said later, real is what the artists say it is.