They could better tell which one was about to tread on them.
Posted on 05/25/2005 3:41:22 AM PDT by billorites
They can't both simultaneously be true. Are you then claiming we should avoid telling someone the truth if it upsets them?
I will put myself up in defense of Ich here. I personally came to believe in Christianity AFTER I had already studied evolution, seen the evidence for it, and decided that the evidence indicated that it was the best explanation for the diversity of life. I was NOT converted to evolution by anti-Christians.
Very profound Ed, very profound. You've made me take a fresh look at Marx and Dawkins' views on religion with your perceptive analysis and cogent commentary.
Fresh look, sam opinion. Both would've banned religion if they could.
Here, I'll save you the trouble and Jim some bandwidth:
Creationist Liar! Nahnahnahnahnah.
I admit to not being up to speed on this issue, but it seems to me all that would be needed to do parallax measurements would be an adjustable micrometer eyepiece and a telescope of sufficient resolution (large enough apeture and good enough optical quality).
Measure the angular separation between the desired two stars, wait several months to create a large enough baseline, and measure again. Repeat on successive years to be sure the change in separation isn't due to proper motion, then compute the distance trigonometrically.
What I don't know is when micrometer eyepiece was invented, or what it's limits of accuracy were, but in theory at least, parallax could be measured without the need for photographic imaging.
Gerard S. Harbison, Professor of ChemistryWhat? Surely you mean "Gerard S. Harbison , a.k.a. Beloved and all-knowing leader." ;oP (went to see what your research was about and got a free laugh)
I'm sorry, but that is merely an assumption on your part based entirely upon statements withing the book itself, and tradition handed down to you.
I want to repost something I wrote on another crevo thread, as this seems to be the thread of the day.
I have no idea what context he was speaking in. He said "one of the first living things." Maybe he was talking about the first multicellular organisms. At any rate, you seem to want to ignore the fact that the eyes were very complex early-on:
==========================
We can be justifiably amazed that these trilobites, very early in the history of life on Earth, hit upon the best possible lens design that optical physics has ever been able to formulate.
~Ellis, 2001, p.49
Ah, so it was always obvious to you, huh? Okay, longie ....
Anyway, I suspect it would require more than merely measuring the separation between two stars. First, the odds are that neither would be close enough to us to exhibit any parallax. Second, if by chance you happened to observe one that was close enough, you wouldn't know which of the two had "moved." You'd need to get a very precise visual fix a large group, and compare that with a sighting of the same group six months later. Then you could see which one had changed position. That's why I assumed (wrongly it seems) that photography must have been involved.
That may be difficult since the church was largely coterminous with scientific inquiry at the time. Furthermore, textbooks related to the Galileo controversy tend to focus on the perceived conflict between religion and science. My point is that Galileo did not only challenge the church. He challenged the predominant science of his day.
Ha! Until it comes to the matter of free inquiry and teaching being suppressed by authority!
Bessel used parallax to determine the distance to 61 Cygni announcing his result in 1838. Clearly to succeed it was important to choose a star which was close to the Sun. His method of selecting a star was based on his own data for he chose the star which had the greatest proper motion of all the stars he had studied, correctly deducing that this would mean that the star was nearby. Since 61 Cygni is a relatively dim star it was a bold choice based on his correct understanding of the cause of the proper motions. Bessel, using a Fraunhofer heliometer to make the measurements, announced his value of 0.314" which given the diameter of the Earth's orbit, gave a distance of about 10 light years. The correct value of the parallax of 61 Cygni is 0.292".John Herschel, when he learnt of Bessel's achievement, wrote to him describing it as: "... the greatest and most glorious triumph which practical astronomy has ever witnessed."
Olbers, told of Bessel's achievement on his 80th birthday, said it was a gift that: "... put our ideas about the universe for the first time on a sound basis."
The Royal Astronomical Society awarded him their gold medal to mark this achievement.
What utter bull. Late on in trilobite evolution, they evolved a Huygens doublet. Big deal. I mean, think for yourself, just once, MM. Is it even plausible this was a better lens than, say, the objective in a good 4 inch refractor? Most modern telescopes have moved well beyond simple achromatic doublets. And actually, several other species have evolved the same thing, independently, since, including the caterpillars of the cabbage white butterflies that are currently devouring my broccoli. Oddly enough, when I pull 'em off and stomp 'em. the advanced optics don't seem to be much of a help.
Drag yourself away from the creationist tracts and read a real scientific account of tribolite eyes. It's a good article.
The first attempts to determine parallaxes using photography were done during the period 1887-1889 by Pritchard at Oxford. Although there was considerable debate over the merits and even possibility of doing astrometry using photographs, photography turned out to be an excellent way to measure parallaxes, as the accuracy was much greater than using visual methods and the labor was much less intensive. Furthermore, by taking a photograph, a permanent record was made of the measurement, so that the image could be examined at once or later, and it could be remeasured again and again for new information. In 1900 Kapteyn designed a systematic method to take these photographs, in allowing each photographic plate to be exposed three times during a single night, and four nights spaced throughout the year, such that in the end there are twelve exposures for every star on the plate.
Page won't come up. I will try later. I'd like to know this.
Yes, you have.
However, if you're going to try to assert that because of his political shortsightedness, he should be scorned in his entirety as a human being, and that therefore his scientific views should be scorned and/or ignored and/or have been discredited as a result, then, well, congratulations, you've commited the age-old fallacy (and cheap and sleazy debate tactic) of the ad hominem argument, and I laugh at your pathetic attempt and at your intellectual dishonesty.
And I laugh at you baseless assertions conjured up out of thin air. My attacks on Dawkins' views are a direct result of his ad hominem cheap shot at folks in Kansas. As they say in the court rooms on TV, he opened the door. My attacks on his views on religion are not only warranted, they are true.
And if you're *not* doing that (and it certainly *looks* as if you are), then what in the hell *is* your reason for repeatedly dragging such irrelevant side issues into a science discussion?
See above. Again, Dawkins is no virgin. He attacks religion constantly. His attack on the folks in Kansas gave me ample reason to review his bigotry. I posted his views and links to his articles exposing those views. In return I got "creationist liar". Big freaking deal. That bothers me as much as an 80 degree day laced with sunshine on the golf course.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish, and what do you expect the result to be? Yeah, Dawkins is a knee-jerk British leftist, but he's hardly alone, there are millions like him. So bloody what?
I am exposing Dawkins for what he is. Keep in mind this is a conservative website dedicated to doing just that. And believ you me, I'll continue to do it when it is warranted and I've got the spare time.
Whereas to you, apparently (and a lot of other folks unhappy with evolution), ideology and politics trump science/truth/evidence. And we all know where *that* leads...
False assertions. Evolution is not a cause of happiness or unhappiness in my life any more than the fact that we breathe air. Truth is truth, nothing can trump it. The truth as I see it is that both Marx and Dawkins would've or would ban religion if they could. I've provided ample evidence to support that opinion. In return, I have gotten no countermanding evidence but loads of Creationist Liars. Shrug.
Here's what you're obviously missing: The science *does* trump ideology and politics -- or more accurately, it's separable from them. If Dawkins is right on the science, he's right. Period. No matter *what* other things he may say, believe, or do on other subjects. And if he's wrong on the science, he's wrong. His personal politics is completely irrelevant -- except to people unclear on the concept of arguing the science on its merits, and who therefore have to spew bile about the man's views on *other* subjects in a cheap attempt to sidetrack the actual discussion of the science.
I was with you until the bile spew ad hominem bs. The you lost me. Like I said truth is truth. If you don't like the mirror being held up to Dawkins, tell him to stick to science and shut his bigotted mouth concerning religion. Otherwise, he's fair game.
Now do you want to discuss the science -- or what Dawkins may have written about it -- or do you want to keep waving the ad hominem brush around despite the fact that no one's falling for it? And no, your being aghast over us not falling for it doesn't carry any water either.
Again, you wave the ad hominem flag as a silencer. It won't work. There is nothing ad hominem about pointing out Dawkins veiws on religion when he makes bigotted attacks based in religion on an entire states population. If that causes you and the "list" angst, so be it.
They could better tell which one was about to tread on them.
800?
800. Truly prime!
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