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Creationism: God's gift to the ignorant (Religion bashing alert)
Times Online UK ^ | May 21, 2005 | Richard Dawkins

Posted on 05/25/2005 3:41:22 AM PDT by billorites

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To: Alamo-Girl; AntiGuv
AntiGuv wrote: Wherever the elements of the universe are arranged in such manner that they might organize organically, then they will do so, and the longer they are serendipitously graced with a stable environment, they will arrange themselves in ever more complex forms.

Or even in an unstable environment.

Sounds life the fecundity principle, a/k/a life principle at work. But I must point out that a principle is not a material thing at all. And form and organization imply intelligence and information. These are not material things either.

Looks like AntiGuv may be some kind of closet ID-er after all. :^)

Thanks for the ping, Alamo-Girl! I have to turn in early for I have to get up at 5 a.m. to attend an all-day conference in Boston tomorrow. I'll be off-line all day, but will check back in in the evening. Hugs for now!!!

2,221 posted on 06/01/2005 6:55:51 PM PDT by betty boop (Nature loves to hide. -- Heraclitus)
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To: jwalsh07
No, you're the joke. The work you used was ban.
ban
verb (banned, banning) officially prohibit.
noun an official prohibition.
My teenage daughter can understand the difference so I know you do too and this is merely another lie.
2,222 posted on 06/01/2005 7:04:25 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: jwalsh07
No, I'm not a lawyer but I can read a dictionary.
libel
• noun 1 the publication of a false statement that is damaging to a person’s reputation. Compare with SLANDER. 2 a written defamation.
• verb (libelled, libelling; US libeled, libeling) defame by publishing a libel.

publish
• verb 1 prepare and issue (a book, newspaper, piece of music, etc.) for public sale. 2 print in a book, newspaper, or journal so as to make generally known. 3 announce formally. 4 communicate (a libel) to a third party.

Claiming that Dawkins would ban religion is false and defamatory and you have written it publicly. It is therefore libel. You really think people are too stupid to see through your bluster. It is amazing.
2,223 posted on 06/01/2005 7:11:34 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
"Supposed" error? Bullshit. You claimed that rational arithmetic is closed under all the operations in that equation. It has been shown otherwise but you won't admit you were wrong. It is pathetic.

What is pathetic is your grasping at some imagined dragon. Don Quixote has nothing on you.

This is the context of my statement.

Plus your gambling problem does not help your argument either. Notice that the summation for the calculation of pi has a symbol on top. That means something.
[img]
And the set of rationals is closed when using all of the operations in the equation.

"That means something" means something. This was your conclusion So you don't know what that little "sideways eight" atop the sigma symbol means? Sad.

You are just as wrong now.

2,224 posted on 06/01/2005 7:24:38 PM PDT by AndrewC (On vacation in Virginia Beach -- Don't you wish you were?)
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To: AndrewC
Ah, the old throwing dust in their eyes trick. I'm not going to let you get away with it. You said "and the set of rationals is closed when using all of the operations in the equation." That is wrong. It has been shown to be wrong. You should cut your losses and admit it.

My questioning whether you understood the meaning of that symbol in the equation is simply explained. Since rational arithmetic is not closed under that operation, I figured you didn't understand its meaning. As you showed later, you did (which I acknowledged here).

But your claim about closure is still wrong. And you still trying to bluff it out.

2,225 posted on 06/01/2005 7:53:12 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Ah, the old throwing dust in their eyes trick. I'm not going to let you get away with it. You said "and the set of rationals is closed when using all of the operations in the equation." That is wrong. It has been shown to be wrong. You should cut your losses and admit it.

I'm not throwing dust or bluffing anything. The discussion is clear, except to you. The purpose was not to discuss your personal view of the discussion. Rationals are closed under addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. I mentioned the little thing on top for a reason. It was not just to add words to my post.

2,226 posted on 06/01/2005 8:09:19 PM PDT by AndrewC (On vacation in Virginia Beach -- Don't you wish you were?)
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To: jwalsh07
When will Dawkins be appearing?

Oh yeah, before I forget, you flatter yourself that Dawkins would come here and debate you. What an ego.

Why don't you dare him? Maybe that will rile him up enough and it would sure be a spectacle. I gave you his email address. Not too chicken are you?

2,227 posted on 06/01/2005 8:41:13 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: AndrewC
You are just incapable of admitting you were wrong. Is it a phychological problem?

Look, I'll try and make if very easy for you. I promise it won't hurt. You just have to answer this question with a simple yes. Were you wrong to claim that rational arithmetic is closed under all the operations in that equation?

2,228 posted on 06/01/2005 8:46:10 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: RightWingNilla
This has been a very Gore3000esque exchange. Thanks for the memories.

Gore3000 used to kick your butt in debate without breaking a sweat too?

2,229 posted on 06/01/2005 8:53:01 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: edsheppa
Why don't you dare him? Maybe that will rile him up enough and it would sure be a spectacle. I gave you his email address. Not too chicken are you?

How does a 6 year old have a teenage child Ed? That's what you act like, a six year old. Dare ya, double dare ya ya chicken creationist liar.

Grow up.

2,230 posted on 06/01/2005 8:59:54 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Doctor Stochastic; betty boop; xzins; PatrickHenry
Thank you for your reply!

me: For any atheist, the quality of life after physical death is zero. No wonder they are so interested in avoiding it.

you: You say this like it's a Bad Thing. The alternative would be what? Embrace death?

As betty boop says the alternative is to embrace life.

For the atheist, physical life is all the life there is - but for many of us, "life" itself is not only physical and therefore does not end upon physical death (as compared to life v non-life/death in nature).

We who are Christian have the added awareness of being alive already in timelessness while still in the flesh - thus we are dead and yet we live (Col 3:3, Gal 2:20). We will not taste the second death (Revelation).

One of these days we need to tackle the false Cartesian split in a wide-ranging discussion. It touches many subjects we debate around here - and like our previous discussions of "reality" and "types of knowledge and valuation of them" and "what is life", it would surely help us to communicate more effectively.

2,231 posted on 06/01/2005 9:10:54 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: edsheppa
Were you wrong to claim that rational arithmetic is closed under all the operations in that equation?

And I'll make it easy for you. No, not in the context for which I made the statement. The infinite symbol was given special attention for a reason. It was to set up the next statement. The one which troubles you so much.

2,232 posted on 06/01/2005 9:14:18 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Right Wing Professor; betty boop
Thank you for your reply! From your previous post at 1788:

What Dawkins meant, I think, was the evolution gives one a credible explanation for most of the world as we observe it. It gives us the 'how'. 'How?' is almost always a good question. Many people are looking for an answer to 'why?'; most atheists, I think, think the 'why' is meaningful only if there is a volition; and if you deny a deity, then there is no volition to puzzle about.

This line of thinking is an example of the ideology to which I was speaking. My remarks were not intended to be personal, from post 2200:

How can one be “fulfilled” when he sees himself as an epiphenomenon of his physical brain? What is there to fill for him but his skull with a few more brain cells? And what is the point of seeking recognition at all if the man really thinks he is just an epiphenomenon of the brain? IMHO, by denying God and Spirit the true atheist life is both shallow and meaningless.

My hope is that you two will pursue the debate as to why "fulfilled atheist" is an oxymoron - or not.

2,233 posted on 06/01/2005 9:27:10 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: jwalsh07
In my opinion, if you could, you would ban the teaching of Darwinian evolution in the public schools.

Stalin banned the teaching of Darwinism in public schools

Therefore you are a Stalinist.

Zdrastvuite, tovarisch!

2,234 posted on 06/01/2005 9:35:35 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: betty boop; AntiGuv
Thank you so much for your reply! I'm tickled that you saw this connection right away also.

As we continue on the definition project - and get into a definition of the collective consciousness hypothesis - then I'm sure we'll be revisiting the fecundity principle, life principle and evolution of one. I'm very much looking forward to it.

As you say, "a principle is not a material thing at all. And form and organization imply intelligence and information. These are not material things either."

My greatest hope is that the Lurkers and correspondents will realize from this definition project that there is more interest in the hypothesis of intelligent causation than just the fellows and supporters of the Discovery Institute. A rose by any other name...

Have a great time in Boston tomorrow, betty boop! Hugs!

2,235 posted on 06/01/2005 9:39:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
My hope is that you two will pursue the debate as to why "fulfilled atheist" is an oxymoron - or not.

You really don't get it, do you?

2,236 posted on 06/01/2005 9:41:35 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: edsheppa
Favoring stamping out religion seems like a ban that is effective. Granted I don't know how Dawkins proposes to carry out his agenda. Maybe he just wants the government to turn schools into brain washings institutions, and reach the minds and hearts of the young and thereby cause religion to die a natural death. He seems annoyed about the influence religious parents have on their young. How might that influence be "stamped out?" Why don't you ask him how he proposes to go about implementation?

Dawkin seems like an extremist. I think extremists usually tend to spoiliate the public square.

By the way expression of opinion are not libelous per se.

2,237 posted on 06/01/2005 9:41:42 PM PDT by Torie (Constrain rogue state courts; repeal your state constitution)
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To: Right Wing Professor
In my opinion, if you could, you would ban the teaching of Darwinian evolution in the public schools.

Come on Prof, a little originality and intellectual honesty. We've been over this before. You have no basis in fact for making such an idiotic assertion. Unfounded assertions devoid of fact are simply unfounded assertions.

I won't comment on your motive for making such an unfounded assertion. Nor will I threaten you with libel or call you a "Darwinian Liar". I'll just get a good laugh out of the lengths otherwise smart folks go to to defend a bigot because they like the science he does.

{Insert hearty blue collar laugh right here!}

2,238 posted on 06/01/2005 9:50:40 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Right Wing Professor; betty boop
Evidently not - so please tell me how it is a hypothetical metaphysical naturalist could be "fulfilled".
2,239 posted on 06/01/2005 9:50:51 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: jwalsh07
You have no basis in fact for making such an idiotic assertion. ,P>Sure I have. I've seen your hostility to the theory of evolution. Sure, you've never said you would ban it, but then, Dawkins has never said he'd ban religion. He denies it, you deny it. He's a Marxist, you're a Stalinist, why should be believe either?

I won't comment on your motive for making such an unfounded assertion. Nor will I threaten you with libel or call you a "Darwinian Liar". I'll just get a good laugh out of the lengths otherwise smart folks go to to defend a bigot because they like the science he does.

What really amuses me are people who can't follow their own logic to its conclusion.

Dobre noch', in any case.

2,240 posted on 06/01/2005 9:57:37 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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