All this being said, I don't think the vast majority of taxes are incident on the consumer (and the idea "cascading, embedded taxes" is bunk), that's why I don't believe producer prices would fall much after switching to a NRST and it would be impossible for them to fall significantly without nominal wages falling also.
Interesting little dance there.
Overlooks however, the fact that folks earning the wages are also the consumers who pay taxes whether they be income taxes or retail sales taxes.
I find it interesting that you find it necessary to put words in the mouth of AFT'rs with your "(as Fair Taxers imply)", the Fair Tax proponents here have been claiming one will receive their current contracted gross wage without any federal withholding taken out as the individual income and employee's side of the SS/Medicare taxes are repealed under HR25. They will instead be paying those taxes in the form of retail sales taxes when they purchase new goods and services.
With respect to replacing one tax system with another on a revenue neutral basis and all other factors held constant there is no higher wage necessary to make up for the tax, or even lower for that matter. There is only the same gross wage to be paid that which is contracted for by the individual.
As an NRST replaces the individual income and SS/Medicare taxes with tax collected at the time one spends their wage rather than at the time one earns their wage, the effect on gross wage in a revenue neutral replacement of taxes is nil for the same amount is still collected in aggregate from individuals. Neither upward pressure in gross wage nor downward pressure would exist as a cause for contracted gross wages to change.
The amount of total wages earned by labor, represented as gross wages in aggregate, are an overwhelmingly contractual based value not particularly subject to downward adjustment at whim of business employers.
Where there are no substantantive increases in business costs attendant with a tax replacement, downward movement of gross wage contracted to labor is less than likely, it would be rediculus to assume such. Likewise without substantive change in amount of taxes paid by individuals only a change in how taxes are paid, there likewise is no pressure introduced by such a reform a business to provide higher wages either.
Looking at the matter in parts, the incidence of tax upon the individual as a whole remains constant in the replaceing individual income and employee's side of SS/Medicare taxes with an equivalent retail sales tax. Thus the pressure by the individual to maintain current and contracted gross wage is considerable not allowing room for downward negotiation in gross wage earned.
As a consequence replacing those particular revenues received by government from federal individual income and employee's side of SS/Medicare taxes with an equivalent retail sales tax effects no change in gross wage. What, under an income/payroll tax system was paid to government by individuals out of wages as they are earned, merely becomes collectable from individuals at the time their earned wages are spent. No net change in pressure to raise or lower gross wages arises from a revenue neutral replacement of federal income and SS/Medicare taxes paid by the individual can exist.
Turning our gaze to the business side of taxreform however, makes for an interesting picture.
A look at the business side of taxes and the overhead costs attendant with those taxes reveals insight as to the relationship that arises between prices and lower costs on businesses, where wages are held in stasis by contractual obligation and the route to greater profit is seen in seeking market share & higher volumes attendant with lowering price to stimulate demand for product and redirection of the focus of resources into greater productivity.
Those taxes that are currently collected from businesses, (corporate income tax and employers the employer's half of SS/Mecidare taxes,) would be repealed under a retail sales tax regime.
With no tax levied on business purchases, business income or employer payrolls, under a retail sales tax structured as an excise on consuption products, considerable reductions in the cost of doing business would allow higher productivity to maximise profit through lower product pricing increasing demand and consequent market shares in competitive markets.
Repealing both corporate income taxes and employer's side of SS/medicare taxes removes the burden of not only those taxes on businesses per-se, it removes the attendant overhead costs on business expended in avoiding, minimizing, planning for, filing & reporting, litigation and legal fees arising out controversy with the government. With greater certainty of amount of taxes due, also comes a lowering of prices for the lower risk factors of guessing wrong at tax remittance time.
The combination of those business taxes and related overhead factors are no inconsiderable portion of the costs that must be financed out of sales of good and services, offering price being the variable that business juggles in its dance of supply & demand and besting competion in optimising profits.
The repeal of federal taxes levied on business will provide for a very substantive reduction in the costs of those businesses and a release of resources directed away from productive utilization in running from the taxman into more productive channels to increase the output capacity and efficiency of business operations to sustain those optimal profits.
Not only does the repeal of business level taxation reduce the cost factors that limit profitibility, repeal of business taxes also allows redirection of resources enhancing overall productivity and capacity to maintain maximum profit potential at much lower pricing levels, driving demand upward with consequent economic growth with price reductions that become possible, indeed economically mandatory, in a competive market.
Prices received by producers and manufacturers are able to to be considerably lower at maximized profit level as a consequence of the reduction of tax related costs and tax savings derived from repeal of business level taxes.
Under a retail sales tax system designed to replace the federal tax revenues from all income and payroll taxes (business level as well as individual), the revene that is now collected from businesses financed through product sales would be collected from individuals purchasing for consumption, that would merely add to those lower producer level prices that are consequent to repleal of business taxes bringing the total (retail sales tax exise plus producer price) payment by individuals for consumption to a level equivalent to the prices paid by individuals before change over from a federal income/payroll tax sytem to a pure national retail sales tax system.
You and CG are wasting your breath ... he either doesn't understand cost cascading in the real world or wishes not to and so your explanations will fall on deaf ears.
'Fraid he's blinded by what actually goes on by his Nightmare VAT/Flat theory. Be interesting to see how far that sort of thing gets with the Tax Panel recommendations come Jul.
Under a retail sales tax system designed to replace the federal tax revenues from all income and payroll taxes (business level as well as individual), the revene that is now collected from businesses financed through product sales would be collected from individuals purchasing for consumption, that would merely add to those lower producer level prices that are consequent to repleal of business taxes bringing the total (retail sales tax exise plus producer price) payment by individuals for consumption to a level equivalent to the prices paid by individuals before change over from a federal income/payroll tax sytem to a pure national retail sales tax system.See, CG? Take home all your current nominal wages and don't pay anymore for goods and services with the tax. [At least, that's what I think he's saying. AG tries to impress with his language so much it ends up sounding like gobbledygook sometimes.]
Under a retail sales tax system designed to replace the federal tax revenues from all income and payroll taxes (business level as well as individual), the revene that is now collected from businesses financed through product sales would be collected from individuals purchasing for consumption, that would merely add to those lower producer level prices that are consequent to repleal of business taxes bringing the total (retail sales tax exise plus producer price) payment by individuals for consumption to a level equivalent to the prices paid by individuals before change over from a federal income/payroll tax sytem to a pure national retail sales tax system.
That is one long sentence...what the hell does it mean?
the revene that is now collected from businesses financed through product sales would be collected from individuals purchasing for consumption,
Otherwise known as double talk...Does that mean under the "pure national sales tax" it will be passed on to the consumer...like you claim it does now?