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To: betty boop
He's entitled to whatever religious opinions he likes, be they "obnoxious" or otherwise. But if he stuffs them into his science, then we have to recognize that he's not doing science; he's doing theology under cover of science.

That's exactly what all the creationist and ID proponents do. However, they compound their felony by failing to do any observation or experimentation.

157 posted on 04/25/2005 8:30:07 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic; Alamo-Girl; marron; js1138; PatrickHenry; Ronzo; Dataman; Tribune7
That's exactly what all the creationist and ID proponents do. However, they compound their felony by failing to do any observation or experimentation.

Hello Doc! You wrote the above in response to my claim that some scientists have theological commitments that are undisclosed in their work. Certainly creationists cannot be held guilty of such non-disclosure. And it seems to me that ID at the present time is more cosmological in its focus than strictly scientific. That is, ID has yet to produce a comprehensive, detailed theory that is testable by means of present methods.

As I've mentioned before, it seems to me that ID is more a catalog of unanswered problems than an elaboration of a comprehensive theory directly leading to experiments. However, I don't think it's fair to say that ID makes no observations. Indeed, observation is what is driving ID in the first place. Primarily what has been observed is the insufficiency of the materialist explanation.

For all its cosmological character, however, my sense (FWIW) is that ID is correct to note that matter requires information in order to produce the world that we observe all around us, and that information is not an epiphenomenon of matter nor of the physical-chemical laws nor is it a product of 4D space-time. One supposes that the reverse is more likely to be true. This is a cosmological statement, not a scientific one.

Yet all science involves cosmological premises of some type, for the simple reason that cosmological premises necessarily lay at the root of all human thinking. When the metaphysical naturalist tells you that all there is, is matter in its motions (contingent on physical laws), that is a cosmological statement, having obvious theological implications. It is fundamentally a statement of faith, for it seems impossible to falsify/validate. And I would say, well, that's just fine -- except for the simple fact that the statement seems hopelessly reductive -- that is to say, insufficient to take into account all the real phenomena that we observe.

ID, it seems to me, seeks to open up the conceptual space in which science is done by not restricting inquiry to only the material, physical features of the universe. Laws aren't physical or material, for openers; yet materialists need them all the same, otherwise their science would be impossible. This to me is a case of fundamental inconsistency, even self-contradiction in the materialist view. It is a tacit admission of the very thing that materialism most strenuously denies -- i.e., the real existence of non-physical entities in the Universe.

I understand that some will say ID cannot be science because it seeks to investigate non-physical components of nature (such as laws and their origin). But that's only true if the purpose of science is limited to the exploration/explanation of the physical. My understanding, however, is that the purpose of science is to tell us about the nature of reality, of the Universe.

My conjecture is that the Universe is more than just its material component, more than its physical "expression." You give every indication that you disagree with me about this. And yet I would say that Doctor Stochastic is more than his material component. Indeed, the most important part of Doc isn't the matter that composes his physical body.

But then, our thinking follows from our seeing. And since neither of us can "see" for the other, I imagine we will continue to have interesting debates.

Thanks so much for writing, Doc!

159 posted on 04/26/2005 7:51:07 AM PDT by betty boop (If everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking. -- Gen. George S. Patton)
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