To: AD from SpringBay
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (Catechism, 846) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Jesus, John 14:6)
And exactly why do you [apparently] think that these two claims are incompatible?
-A8
1,272 posted on
04/23/2005 7:29:21 AM PDT by
adiaireton8
("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
To: adiaireton8; Pelayo
Catechism, 846, 14:6
And exactly why do you [apparently] think that these two claims are incompatible?
Folks, you both seem to be asking about the same question or raising the same point - I've included you both in my reply. Hope you don't mind.
I imagine I'll go on too long and the differences will remain, BUT - by saying that you have to be a member of the Catholic church in order to get to heaven is placing a barrier between the believer and the Lord that is not there. Christ isn't the church. The church didn't die on the cross for our sins. The redemption is in Christ Jesus.
Also understand, I am one of those who sees the Bible as the sole rule of faith. So, whoever wants to add the part about being a part of the church or going to hell needs to be really careful. adiaireton8 said in an earlier reply something to the effect that, "Of course God, being omniscient, can do what He wants." What a gracious allowance. I'm thinking we disagree on that one.
I'm also thinking that our definitions of church are going to be different. As I see in the Bible, church (from the Greek ekklesia) means an assembly - with the same meaning you might think of when you hear about a high school assembly - you're either physically present, there or not there. Ekklesia is the only word that was ever translated into "church" or "churches" in the KJV. In that sense, it's impossible to have a visible assembly of all the believers at the same time until, of course, Jesus returns. Until that time, we have only local churches. There is no precedent for the Bishop of Rome to exert authority over the other churches. Even if Peter was the first Pope (and I don't think he was) there is no example of him directing the church at Antioch or of setting leadership up for any of the other New Testament churches. For another example, notice in Relation that the seven churches (plural) in the early chapters each receive their own letters, and they are from John - not Peter; but I digress.
Now, in John 14 Jesus is speaking to the disciples at the last supper. In one of His last, pre-crucifixion opportunities to teach them, He tries to prepare them for His His departure. Then we read John 14:6. I'm thinking that the disciples who took the Lord's Supper that evening were the first church. John 14:6 and Catechism 846 are not the same because Jesus is instructing His church that they need to believe in Him, even though they are already "the" church. Make sense?
Another reason is because I know (and you too, probably) people can believe in Jesus Christ all by themselves - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). This can happen without ever assembling with other believers. Such would be an impoverished spiritual life and not in accordance to what believers ought to be doing, but it would be possible. The thief on the cross never had the opportunity to belong to a (the) church and serve Him. But he did have the opportunity to believe in Jesus as the Son of God. He was never baptised either. For such belief he was promised to be in paradise within hours.
1,305 posted on
04/23/2005 10:17:00 AM PDT by
AD from SpringBay
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