Posted on 04/05/2005 10:01:52 PM PDT by Coleus
For the last quarter of a century, this non-Catholic has had a pope. Now that John Paul II is gone, I am even more of an orphan than the Christians in the Roman church. For they will surely have another pope, but that one may not be mine, since I haven't converted.
I am sure I am reflecting the views of many Protestants. Who else but John Paul II gave voice to my faith and my values in 130 countries? Who else posited personal holiness and theological clarity against postmodern self-deception and egotism? Who else preached the gospel as tirelessly as this man?
What other clergyman played any comparable role in bringing down communism, a godless system? What other world leader—spiritual or secular—understood so profoundly how hollow and bankrupt the Soviet empire was, so much so that this tireless writer never bothered to pen an encyclical against Marxism-Leninism because he knew it was moribund?
Has there been a more powerful defender of the sanctity of life than this Pole, in whose pontificate nearly 40 million unborn babies wound up in trashcans and furnaces in the United States alone? What more fitting insight than John Paul II's definition of our culture as a culture of death—an insight that is now clearly sinking in, to wit the declining abortion rates in the United States?
In Europe some time ago, a debate occurred in Protestant churches: Should John Paul II be considered the world's spokesman for all of Christianity? This was an absurd question. Of course he spoke for all believers. Who else had such global appeal and credibility, even to non-Christians and non-believers?
Of course, there was the inveterate Billy Graham. There were many faithful Orthodox and Protestant bishops, pastors and evangelists.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
I am appalled at some of my fellow Protestants on this thread (and others) who are taking this man's death as an opportunity to belittle their fellow Christians. It is sickening.
Well said!!!!
I like the Pope's chances better than yours.
As for your Birch Society history lesson, I have no use for it. The Pope was a tireless servant of God. Are you?
As a Catholic apologetic I have encountered much anti-Catholic bigotry premised in prejudice couched in false understanding; however, the statement above is particulary intriguing because of its utter absurdity. Anyone with half a clue that has debated Catholics would have long ago left this 'jewel' behind. Regardless, I may be missing out on some hidden teaching -can you refer me to some authentic RCC reference(s) for this one?
Where in the Bible does it say to do that?
Yes...we know. And she was. But she is not the Queen of Heaven. I learned today that in the Rosary she is "coronated" but Christ is not. Strange.
You defended the accusations of "worshiping" Mary and the saints very well. However I think you're wasting your time. People see what they WANT to see.
Some Protestants (not all) will continuously repeat the worship mantra no matter how many times we tell them we worship only God but honour the saints. How they can read our minds telling us we're wrong, I'll never know.
Had Mary not put in a good word at Cana, the miracle at Cana would not have occurred. Obviously Mary's word DOES hold some weight.
I believe that wise man was the late great Archbishop Fulton Sheen. (Now there's a great Catholic...)
Small correction. It wasn't the only organized church. The Catholics had already split away from the Eastern Orthodox in 1054.
Review Post #513 and the linked document and see what other strange things you may learn LOL. By the way, there are many anti-Catholic bigots -have been for 2000+ years; some much more prolific than you on this thread.
What I have found is that each and every anti-Catholic that follows some religious teaching or methodology has within their teaching at least one error that either led the founders of their religion to depart from the Catholic faith at some point or keeps them separate now.
The errors in doctrine and or practice are quite easy to objectively point out and as a result many try to remain ambiguous and possibly ashamed to state which religion they actually follow?
Considering Christ established a Church to evangelize/teach through both written and spoken revealed truth it is strange that some claim not to even be associated with such a Church yet claim to be Christian?
What religion do you specifically practice, where is your Church, and where is a source of information regarding the teaching etcetera so that I may review it?
Well, actually it ultimately is. Otherwise, to Whom are we asking her to pray for us? Obviously, to God.
Again...you seem to have confusion about praying "to" and "with". You state one thing, and then backtrack.
I’ll try again.
Prayer, (or more generally, a petition) may be offered to a person one of two ways. One, that the person himself my grant the request, or two, that the person may obtain the request from another.
Because only God gives Grace and Glory, and because all our prayers should be directed to obtaining these, Catholics recognize that only God is to be prayed to in the first way and also that He must be prayed to in this way.
But, in the second way mentioned, we may pray to the Angels and Saints, not that through them God may know our petitions, but that through their prayers and merits our petitions may be effective. This is intercessory type prayer which is recommended throughout the Scriptures, such as in 1 Tim ch. 2.
Another Scriptural example of this can be found in the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) where ‘the smoke of incense of the prayers of the Saints ascended to God from the hand of the Angel’ (Rev. 8:4). Needless to say, when the Church through Her Liturgy or private devotions offers prayers to God, the Blessed Trinity, or Christ in particular, She invokes Him to “have mercy upon us”. But with the Saints, as has been shown on this thread with the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel and the Ave Maria above, the Church invokes them “to pray for us”. To Whom? To God through Christ in the Holy Spirit!
It is in that sense that I have been making my comments about the difference of praying “to” and praying “with”. The goal should be to reach a correct understanding of each others belief. Granted, you can argue that the prayers in these cases are proximately directed to either Mary or Michael (they are), and I have no problem accepting that provided that you recognize also that the ultimate and terminal end of these prayers are to God Himself. Only then will you correctly understand the Catholic position.
In intercessory prayer the Church honors and celebrates with veneration the holiness of the Saints which they have obtained through the merits of Christ. We also recognize that their intercession on our behalf avail us only to the extent that by the Divine ordinance they intercede in virtue of the Grace they have received by Christ our Head and in view of His merits. Additionally, through their intercession we set their virtues – the exercise of which is obtained through the Grace of God to the extent that they are united to Christ in His Mystical Body the Church – before us for a model to imitate and participate in Him who is the model of all virtues, Jesus Christ.
The point being, that the veneration of the Saints is ultimately directed to the Glory of God, and in honoring them we honor Christ Who’s Spirit lives in them and animates them. They are Saints precisely because of Who and What Christ Is and Did.
The Catholic Church condemns anyone who would pray to any being outside of God and His Christ as if to receive Grace and Glory apart from God. From my reading of your and others posts, it is my understanding that this is what you are concerned about. Does this clarify the situation?
UBI PRIMUM
ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTIONENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX
FEBRUARY 2, 1849Great indeed is Our trust in Mary. The resplendent glory of her merits, far exceeding all the choirs of angels, elevates her to the very steps of the throne of God. Her foot has crushed the head of Satan. Set up between Christ and His Church, Mary, ever lovable and full of grace, always has delivered the Christian people from their greatest calamities and from the snares and assaults of all their enemies, ever rescuing them from ruin.
5. And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.
Ineffabilis Deus"What she asks, she obtains." In other words, she can override God's own will. She is more powerful than God himself for even He cannot resist her request. Or so it says.All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin -- in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world; in her who is the most excellent glory, ornament, and impregnable stronghold of the holy Church; in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers.
Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.
Given at St. Peter's in Rome, the eighth day of December, 1854, in the eighth year of our pontificate.
Pius IX
“Mary, though conceived and born without taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the sufferings of her divine Son, in order to be Coredemptrix of humanity.” ~Pope John Paul II
"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race." ~Pope Benedict XV
"O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on the altar of the cross, did stand next to Him, suffering with Him as a Coredemptrix..." ~Pope Pius XI
I suggest you do further study as you keep repeating this falsehood. Out of curiosity -I would like to review your source for this false information? No source -no legitimacy...
Regardless, FYI for future reference I recommend you check for and avoid anti-Catholic sources of information -there are at a minimum as many of these anti-Catholic sources of information as there are other religions. Consequently, research from legitimate unbiased sources is best if seeking truth (for some reason there is much anti-Catholic propaganda).
Prior to beginning research into this specically I would suggest you consider the pretext of Latin versus Greek and the five patriarchates leading up to the time of the great schism which comprised Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem with Rome the historically documented and established primacy.
Following this I suggest it would be prudent to find out specifically why Caerularius was excommunicated and why and when the remaining Eastern patriarchs went into schism thereby separating themselves from the (Latin) supreme pontiff in Rome.
Yes, I originally stole it form our last Pope of Blessed memory when I first signed up;)
Tell me...when you pray WITH Mary...does she understand English...is she omnipotent, or omnipresent?
If you want clarification of that whole "WITH" thing I just posted another freeper about it above, i think #533.
Oh Lordy, this is a new one for me. Properly speaking only God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent. They are both one and the same in the mysterious Eternitiy and Being of God. They are attributes that we can only weakly apply to Him, because we have no way of comprehending His Infinite Being.
Only in the fullness of heaven will I (or anyone else) know what it is like to be fully united to God and know Him directly face to Face, as it were.
However, the Saints in heaven possess the Beatific Vision of God, even though they do not have their resurrected and glorified bodies yet – though Catholics believe that Mary does. We can further surmise that the Angels in heaven know everything in detail about what happens on Earth from the Gospel of St. Luke.:
Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Luke 15:10)
Also form St. Matthew:
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.”
It is therefore appropriate to speculate that since angels have cognizance of what happens here on earth, then the Saints through the Beatific Vision of the Blessed Trinity do likewise. Furthermore, since Grace builds on nature, and since it would only be natural for the Saints in heaven to have a concern for those on earth they have left behind, and more importantly, since they are consumed with Divine Charity – since it is the one virtue that is the goal of all the others - , and the Love for their brothers and sisters in Christ is perfected, it only makes sense that in God’s good pleasure He would provide them the supernatural gifts to be able to be fully aware of what is happening on Earth and communicate with them in the communion of Saints. That is, they would be able to hear and understand them and plead for them directly before God. The best I can come up with for now, anyway.
But jeez, if I knew exactly how it worked, I’d already be in heaven!
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