Protestant Theologian: He Was My Pope, Too

christianity today ^ | 04.04.05 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[Coleus]

For the last quarter of a century, this non-Catholic has had a pope. Now that John Paul II is gone, I am even more of an orphan than the Christians in the Roman church. For they will surely have another pope, but that one may not be mine, since I haven't converted.

I am sure I am reflecting the views of many Protestants. Who else but John Paul II gave voice to my faith and my values in 130 countries? Who else posited personal holiness and theological clarity against postmodern self-deception and egotism? Who else preached the gospel as tirelessly as this man?

What other clergyman played any comparable role in bringing down communism, a godless system? What other world leader—spiritual or secular—understood so profoundly how hollow and bankrupt the Soviet empire was, so much so that this tireless writer never bothered to pen an encyclical against Marxism-Leninism because he knew it was moribund?

Has there been a more powerful defender of the sanctity of life than this Pole, in whose pontificate nearly 40 million unborn babies wound up in trashcans and furnaces in the United States alone? What more fitting insight than John Paul II's definition of our culture as a culture of death—an insight that is now clearly sinking in, to wit the declining abortion rates in the United States?

In Europe some time ago, a debate occurred in Protestant churches: Should John Paul II be considered the world's spokesman for all of Christianity? This was an absurd question. Of course he spoke for all believers. Who else had such global appeal and credibility, even to non-Christians and non-believers?

Of course, there was the inveterate Billy Graham. There were many faithful Orthodox and Protestant bishops, pastors and evangelists.

[D Edmund Joaquin]

actually it does. The Torah is not just a book of written words, as you say, it is in many respects, unknowable. however, the mind of god was purposely made known to mankind through 2 distinct revelations of this Word, the Torah and Jesus Christ. which part of the Word do you wish to denigrate?

[D Edmund Joaquin]

Amen

[rwfromkansas]

"All Scripture is inspired by God
and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Please explain how a deficient work can make one "adequate" in the eyes of a perfect God who demands only perfection?

Scripture is enough.

[rwfromkansas]

"So then, brethren, stand firm and
hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Since the apostles have ceased, so have their words. All we have left is their letters. Scripture is what we are to hold fast to.

As for history, Hilary says the "faith from the beginning" involved, "if any man teaches contrary to the wholesome and right faith of the Scriptures. (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Councils, or the Faith of the Easterns, 30)

[SoothingDave]

Examine the various mysteries which are the true focus of the Rosary, not the words of the prayers being said.

Dave, with all respect, I'm seeing 53 "Hail Marys" against 12 "Our Fathers" or "Glory to the Fathers" in any given five-mystery Rosary. If this were a forest of 65 trees, 53 of which were pine and 12 of which were maple, would I be missing the forest for the trees if I looked own on it from a hill and called it a pine forest?

I guess I wasn't clear enough. You are counting trees. I asked you to look at the forest. But first, a very crucial question: Do you understand that Catholics use a Rosary to meditate upon tidbits from Christ's life?

The Joyful Mysteries:
(Monday and Thursday; and the Sundays from 1st Sunday of Advent until Lent.)
1. The Annunciation to Mary

Mary is here, but this is the moment we learn Jesus is conceived. Jesus 1, Mary 0

2. The Visitation of Mary

Mary fgoes to visit Elizabeth and John jumps in the womb for joy. Elizabeth recognizes Mary as the Mother of the Lord. Jesus 2, Mary 0

3. The Birth of our Lord Jesus Christ

Excessive focus on Mary? Nah. Jesus 3, Mary 0

4. The Presentation of the Child Jesus in the Temple

Jesus 4, Mary 0

5. The Finding of Our Lord in the Temple

Jesus 5, Mary 0

The Sorrowful Mysteries:
(Tuesday and Friday; and the Sundays of Lent.)
1. The Agony of Christ in the Garden

No mention of Mary at all. Jesus 6, Mary 0

2. The Scourging at the Pillar

Jesus 7, Mary 0

3. The Crowning with Thorns

Jesus 8, Mary 0

4. The Carrying of the Cross

Jesus 9, Mary 0

5. The Crucifixion and Death of Our Lord on the Cross

Jesus 10, Mary 0

Glorious Mysteries:
(Wednesday and Saturday; and the Sundays from Easter until Advent.)
1. The Resurrection of Our Lord

Jesus 11, Mary 0

2. The Ascension of Our Lord

Jesus 12, Mary 0

3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles

Jesus 13, Mary 0

4. The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into Heaven

OK, Jesus is the actor here and Mary the actee, but I'll give you this one. Jesus 13, Mary 1

5. The Coronation of Our Lady as Queen of Heaven and Earth

Ditto. Jesus 13, Mary 2

I could see awarding a half point maybe for the first two (Annunciation and Visitation) cause they are Mary-heavy. So it could be scored Jesus 12, Mary 3.

But that's it. If you said a bunch of prayers while thinking about these life vignettes, whom would you be thinking of?

SD

[don-o]

English is quite slippery. We've got a problem here because of the imprecise use of words (or the use of imprecise words.)

"Worship" now is used to mean that submission and reverence due to God alone; but at the time of the Protestant Reformation it meant, simply, submission and reverence (cf. Thomas Cranmer's 16th century Anglican wedding rite, which contains the lovely words between the bride and groom: "with my body I thee worship.")

Similarly "adore," which is sometimes used as synonym for worship (Balimore Catechism, Q. 1143: "The First Commandment commands us to adore God alone...") but is often loosely used to mean "like a whole bunch" ("I adore chocolate cheesecake.")

Tha's why serious Catholics like to use dead languages like Latin and Greek. They don't slip around so much.

Greek. "Dulia." Honor. We give dulia to our fathers and mothers, and to the angels and saints.

"Hyperdulia." High honor. We give hyperdulia to Mary because she is the bride of the Spirit, the mother of the Son, thus the point of intimate contact between God and the human race, by whom we were given Christ in the flesh.

"Latria." Supreme honor. We give latria to God because he is the Supreme Being, the All-Good and the source of all goodness. Everything that is good is derivative from Him.

http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/honor.htm

Protestant brethren: please intercede to God for me, a sinner.

(There! Yes! I prayed to you!)

Your peaceable sister,

Mrs. Don-o

[CompSciGuy]

Matthew 7: 1-6 "1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. " Interpreting doctrine is fine, but what is occuring on this thread is going beyond that. As a Catholic I do not attempt to interpret Protestant doctrine, I'd be just as happy if Protestants felt equally obliged. Those who feel they need to take mote out of my eye better pull the beam out of their's first.

Cheers,

CSG

[SoothingDave]

I think you are proving my point wonderfully. Can you distinguish at all, between the Bible and the Second Person of the Trnity, the Son, Jesus?

("The Word was God" does not mean that the Bible is the Word or that the Bible is God. This is how you are coming across. I'd like you to either affirm or refute this.)

actually it does.

Does what? Please try to be clear. I asked you to either affirm or deny a given statement. Pleae give me more than this, cause I don't know what you are trying to say.

SD

[rwfromkansas]

1 Corinthians 4:6:

Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

[todd1]

Good post

[rwfromkansas]

That verse is not referring to doctrinal judging.

And obviously, we have to do some judging.....in fact, other verses tell us to commit "righteous judgment."

If we can't judge at all, we can't spread the gospel because that involves telling people they are sinners.

There is a hypocritical judging for sins that we commit ourselves, which is wrong. That is what is being discussed thre.

Peace.

[trickyricky]

We remember the Latins and how they sacked Constantinople.

You said it brother!
And I remember how them lousy yankees burned down our houses.
And raped our women folk.
We ain't fergot it, and we ain't never gonna fergit it!

[rwfromkansas]

How can a mother be a queen?

Not very moral there...

[rwfromkansas]

In any event, Scripture refers to the Father, not to any Queen mother.

[SoothingDave]

Please explain how a deficient work can make one "adequate" in the eyes of a perfect God who demands only perfection?

You make the classic mistake of not reading what the verse says, but rather what you wish it would say.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Scripture being "profitable" (some say "useful") does not make it sufficient. That it is an indispensible item to "adequately" (some say "perfectly") equip a man does not mean it is sufficient for the task.

Observe:

All gasoline is refined by oil companies and is profitable for combustion, so that the modern motorist can be adequatelly equipped for long distance travel.

Does this mean that gasoline is all one needs for travel? Of coruse not. One needs a car, tires, brakes, provisions, a map, etc. You have employed the classic "Cuba Libre" defense. Limes are profitable for fully equipping a Cuba Libre, but I would not want to drink one made solely of limes.

SD

[CompSciGuy]

Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Seems like Jesus wants our prayers and good works too. I guess reading the bible and saying I believe isn't enough for God.

Cheers,

CSG

[D Edmund Joaquin]

("The Word was God" does not mean that the Bible is the Word or that the Bible is God.

actually it does.

Jesus is the Word. Jesus is the Torah. Jesus is God.

what part dont you understand? Maybe that's why it's called "The Holy Bible"?

Perhaps you dont realize with what reverence our Jewish friends regard their Holy Torah? They treat it with the respect that the Word of God rightfully deserves, something we can learn from

[SoothingDave]

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Since the apostles have ceased, so have their words. All we have left is their letters. Scripture is what we are to hold fast to.

That's two giant leaps of illogic in one paragraph. An exhortation to stand firm to the traditions taught is converted into an assurance that all traditions have ceased being handed down and that the authority of the Apostles has disappeared.

SD

[todd1]

I wasn't talking about scripture... It is what us catholics believe. We have verbal teachings and tradition that has been passed down from the early church fathers. Where it the bible does it say scripture alone.

[CompSciGuy]

I disagree with you there... The passage in question has quite a bit of relevance for this thread. But if you feel a compelling need to bash my faith I can't stop you. But I will call you out as a Christian for it. After all the question so many protestant love to ask is, "What would Jesus do?"

Cheers,

CSG