Protestant Theologian: He Was My Pope, Too

christianity today ^ | 04.04.05 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[SoothingDave]

Yes, I did...in the context of a conversations with someone else. I believe not having participated you did not understand the context.

I read it and understood just fine. I think you didn't get Conservative til I die's point that the Pope is an international figure whose concerns are not the same as the average American or Republican.

We are allowed to have opinions on whether we consider a war "just" aren't we? However, I really don't want to digress and debate war vs. pacifism.

Of course we are. That's what I was trying to flesh out, by what reasoning you decide a war is "just" or not. Apparently you did not know this, but there is an entire school of Catholic thought which deals with the subject. There are criteria that have to be met in order for war to be considered "just."

I see you were simply using the term without any knwoedge that it had a specific meaning, and without any forethought of your own about what criteria must be met. Sorry for bothering you about it.

SD

[Minuteman23]

Do you care to tackle response 7?

[Aquinasfan]

You don't pray to her? (Hail Mary full of grace...)

Luke 1:26-28

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you."

She isn't considered the 'Queen of heaven'?

Revelation 12:1

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

FWIW

[Aquinasfan]

They don't consider Jesus sufficient. They feel they need another heavenly intercessor.

Where's that in the Catechism? Church Council? Papal encyclical? Etc.

[what's up]

I see you were simply using the term without any knwoedge that it had a specific meaning, and without any forethought of your own about what criteria must be met

Of course I know that "just" has a specific meaning. Like I said...I don't feel like debating what constitutes a just war. And of course I know that Catholics have a whole school of thought on it...and I'm really not interested in investigating it at the moment because I'm not here to debate war as an issue. I believe the war was just, noble, good, honorable, etc. (and I do understand what ALL those words mean BTW).

Also, I'm glad you felt the Iraq war was just. If the Pope opposed it, I do not consider that OK as you do. I did not consider it OK for any foreign leader who had power to help to have opposed it. Chirac, Schroeder, Castro any of the them. Something wrong with their thinking IMO.

[Aquinasfan]

Intercessor: "For there is one God, and one mediator (intercessor) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)."

Revelation 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

[SoothingDave]

Also, I'm glad you felt the Iraq war was just. If the Pope opposed it, I do not consider that OK as you do.

Have you considered the impact on Arab Christians? What about how the rest of the Muslim world would view the West's largest religion teaming up with the West's Superpower?

Perhaps the Pope has a perspective we do not. I'm happy having him as "good cop."

SD

[billbears]

I am sure I am reflecting the views of many Protestants

Not my views or many of the Protestant faiths. Sure he seemed like a good guy. But I'm not Catholic and I don't believe their theology.

[CompSciGuy]

Not to be snide, but Protestantism would have never survived if not for the Muslims (i.e. The Turks). Had the German Emperor not been distracted Luther would have ended up at a BBQ as well. Of course this is all 4-5 Centuries ago, and PJP II did apologize for these acts. I'm still waiting for the Queen of England to apologize for her ancestors raping, pillaging, enslaving, and starving mine all in the name of the Church of England (or Ireland as the case was). Let's not forget the South where in Virginia for a time one could not vote because of one's creed. I am sure the other southern states were equally as tolerant. We can go round and round on this or we can realize that it is the twenty-first century, and find bonds that bring us together. The alternative is bowing towards Mecca and worship of Allah.

Cheers,

CSG

[YCTHouston]

"One nice thing about "Protestant" leaders is that they're not infallable, and can admit they were wrong."

If only Freepers could do the same.

[madison10]

What makes you think she's listening? (Mary, that is)

[what's up]

I'm happy having him as "good cop."

That's nice. I'm happy you're happy. Good for you.

[chs68]

I am a Protestant -- a Presbyterian, to be exact. An Elder and a Deacon.

I'm conservative, both theologically and politically.

Every Sunday at my church in Washington, DC, we recite either the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed. Both creeds mention three people -- Jesus, Mary, and Pontius Pilate.

My guess is that the names of these three people were i ncluded in the Creeds for a reason.

Jesus, because he is the Savior of the world. It is important to affirm that.

Pilate, because he (and not the Jews) unjustly condemned Jesus to death.

And Mary.

Mary was the woman who God selected (or, if you prefer "elected") to carry Jesus and to give birth to Jesus.

As such, she must have been very special to God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And, because she was so special to God, she is special to me.

More special to me, in fact, than any other woman mentioned in scripture.

I'm not sure what it is, exactly, that Roman Catholics believe about Mary. I'm pretty sure that they (like Protestant) subscribe to the notion that Mary was the Mother of Jesus. And I'm also pretty sure that Roman Catholics believe, just as I -- a Protestant -- believe, that Mary was very special person to God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I'm sure they believe that Mary is in Heaven. And I would almost bet that they believe, just as I believe, that Mary holds a special place of honor in Heaven -- as, no doubt, Paul and Matthew and Peter, andmany others do.

I have no trouble at all acknowledging and honoring Mary. After all, she was selected by God to be Jesus' mother, and she answered God's call, and she raised Jesus. She was there when He was crucified. Truly, a blessed woman special to God.

It has always rather bothered me that because some Protestants disagree with the Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of Mary, some Protestants find it difficult to acknowledge Mary's specialness to God and to honor her for who she was.

[what's up]

Where's that in the Catechism? Church Council? Papal encyclical? Etc.

Real cute. There are plenty of Catholics on this thread that say they speak to Mary as an intercessor. It's very common. You don't have to look through tomes of material to find that out.

[YCTHouston]

All of your attacks, and yet so little about what you truly believe or how you see the Lord moving in this world. Why is that some so lustfully thrive on division and attack the way you do? You are a sad case.

[SoothingDave]

It has always rather bothered me that because some Protestants disagree with the Roman Catholic Church's doctrine of Mary, some Protestants find it difficult to acknowledge Mary's specialness to God and to honor her for who she was.

Very well said. Thank you.

I'm not sure what it is, exactly, that Roman Catholics believe about Mary.

We believe Mary was so special to God that He prepared her to be Jesus' Mother by preserving her from Original Sin. And that His Special graces continued through her life, freeing her from sin. And that at the end of her life, her body was assumed into Heaven, where she takes up her "special place of honor," as you put it.

That is enough to drive some others crazy. Then there is theological speculation and contemplation about Mary's role in saying "Yes" to God, and how that means Grace enters the world because of her "Yes." (But such talk is vastly misunderstood as if we were saying Mary was equal to Jesus or that what she did could have been done without God specially gifting her for her role.)

SD

[what's up]

so little about what you truly believe or how you see the Lord moving in this world

That's not what this thread is about. I prefer to stay on topic. If you want to start a thread on what the conservatives are doing presently, or what Bush is doing to expand freedom, I will cheerfully say much on how I think the Lord is moving in this world. I am always positive about these events.

[Aquinasfan]

There are plenty of Catholics on this thread that say they speak to Mary as an intercessor.

We don't pray to her. We ask her to pray (to ask) to Jesus for us. The saints in heaven are offering our prayers to Jesus, as is seen in the passage from Revelation that I posted above.

[chs68]

"We've been bearing with your silliness for about 5 centuries and will continue to do so. We know our Church is the One True Church and that the Protestant churches are not, and never will be. We continue to pray that one day you'll all come around and stop being wicked and disobedient and come back to the Church where you belong."

You're kidding, right?

I think there are some things that both Protestants and Roman Catholics agree on:

1. God created the heavens and the earth.

2. Man is, because of sin, in need of redemption.

4. God is triune -- three persons in one Godhead.

On many other things, you (a Roman Catholic) and I (a Protestant) can disagree.

But I would never call another person who believes in those things "silly". Nor would I suggest to another person who believes in those things that he or she is being "wicked" and "disobedient" because he or she failed to adhere to some doctrine or another.

The reason I would not do this has nothing to do with my own sense of manners and how one ought to treat other people.

Rather, it has to do with something Jesus prayed for --"that they might be one" [John 17:11].

I'm not sure, but I think divisive statements towards other believers do not contribute to what Jesus prayed for.

[CompSciGuy]

Mary as "Co-Redemptrix" is heresy. If the Catholic Church was to support it I would become a Protestant (i.e. I would protest that.) Mary was a human (albeit without sin), Jesus is God, and only by worshiping God and doing good works will I enter Heaven. If I say "prayers to" the Saints, the Blessed Virgin, the Angels, Dead Relatives, etc. It is only so they may pray on my behalf to the Triune God, Father of the Universe. It is not because I feel less worthy to do so (I do pray to God, often), but rather that I feel the power of many people praying is a force that cannot be ignored. If God is the final judge of mankind, I want as many character witnesses vouching for my salvation. Just my $0.02.

Cheers,

CSG