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I tend to agree with him.
1 posted on 04/01/2005 11:10:09 AM PST by prman
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To: prman

Regardless of religious belief or lack thereof if we don't consider basic human rights like life and liberty as coming from a higher authority than law, as the DoI declares, then the laws that are written by men will give or take all rights. Rights will change as the men who write and read laws change their minds and their seats of power.


2 posted on 04/01/2005 11:28:09 AM PST by TigersEye (Are your parents Pro-Choice? I guess you got lucky! ... Is your spouse?)
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To: prman

Actually, when religiously minded people find out that you're an atheist, many have a tendency to equate that with some sort of devil worship, and a lot of those will start reciting some passage from the Bible in order to 'enlighten' you.

And what is commonly understood as 'devil worship', by the way, might be something like worshipping nature or a big rock in your backyard. So what? As long as they're not hurting anybody, (say like some people who might not get their sick baby timely medical care, because their version of God will take of it all) what business of it is of anybody else to impose their values?

If you want to believe in any of the myriad religious teachings, hey, you're an American, you've got that right, and more power to you. When you want to impose your particular brand of religion on everybody else, whether they're Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, or atheists, people are going to have a tendency to get rather testy about it.

I know that's difficult to understand for people who live strictly 'by the Book', but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Therefore, nobody should be surprised when there's a backlash against certain religious groups who advocate that a government of all people should interpret civil law strictly according to one particular religious belief and it's accompanying tract.



3 posted on 04/01/2005 11:42:42 AM PST by hleewilder
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To: prman
As an agnostic I take offense at being lumped in with atheists. Atheism to me is a faith based religion. It just places faith in the fact that there is no god. They also preach to others what they believe and actively seek the conversion of "non-believers".

A true agnostic should never be innately antagonistic toward religious beliefs. Even though I went to church during most of the time I was growing up, I just never found a true faith in any religion. No amount of preaching can ever change that. I would love to have the comfort of believing in an eternal order and an omnipotent being. I just don't and I can't lie to myself.

What really bothers me is the way the atheists have declared an all out war on Christianity. One would have to be blind not to notice the incessant attempts to tear away at the founding principles of this nation. What makes it all the more disturbing to me, is that the atheists, themselves a proponent of a faith based belief system (faith there is no god), are being allowed to establish their "church" as an officially government sponsored religion in the name of secularism.

Please remember that a real agnostic is not the same as an atheist - the atheists just want you to think they are. Also, anyone who claims to be an agnostic that is outwardly hostile to those with religious beliefs, is really an atheist.

Even though I can't force myself to believe in any deity, I try to live my life by the general intentions of Christian teachings. To me strong moral values are the glue of civilization. Without them, things can rapidly fall apart.

I've known atheists who actually are angered if someone prays for their well being. That is irrational behavior and pretty much sums up most of the atheists I have known. I would much rather live with Christians than with atheists.

Finally, I would like to mention that being an extremely fiscal conservative, a true agnostic with strong moral values, and one who supports the Christian values of this country, is an extremely lonely existence. I don't recommend it by choice.
4 posted on 04/01/2005 11:43:52 AM PST by Codeflier (Implement Loser Pays)
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To: prman
Non-believers have no such certainty, only doubts.

I have to take issue with this. If these "non-believers" really were riddled with doubt, they wouldn't take to the barricades with such avidity and dispatch. On the contrary, they have a religious certainty of a magnitude that would leave Peter the Hermit gaping in awe.

The difference is not "belief" versus "non-belief" and the sooner we see it the better. The difference is between "beliefs" with different content.

For instance, I might frame a discussion this way: Consider the man Jesus of Nazareth. Practically everybody is persuaded "believes" that such a person lived in the first century of this era, and that he suffered a criminal's execution at the hands of the imperial Roman government. Now comes the question:

Where is he today?

Any answer that we might give to that question, and I mean ANY answer, involves a "belief". I wasn't alive to see Jesus in the first century, so I don't know the answer firsthand, and I am reasonably confident that nobody who reads these words can claim anything better.

Again, it's not "belief" vs "non-belief". It's more like "belief in A" vs "belief in non-A".

And if anybody brings up the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", settle the question of who defines "extraordinary" before proceeding. The secularist survives by insisting on the sole right to mark the field, and the effect is that only secularist touchdowns show on the scoreboard. If someone wishes to claim that a group of uneducated hicks who willingly endured martyrdom rather than retract their claims to have seen Jesus alive after his execution were mass-hallucinating or had secretly stolen the body or <insert your favorite dodge here>, then I want THAT claim treated as extraordinary. Equal opportunity for all.

6 posted on 04/01/2005 12:04:42 PM PST by thulldud (It's bad luck to be superstitious.)
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To: prman
...– the root cause in all these cases is mere hubris – the arrogant, overweening presumption of non-believers that they have the corner on the truth.

Of course this can never be said of believers...

7 posted on 04/01/2005 12:13:42 PM PST by Youngblood
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