Posted on 03/16/2005 6:57:14 PM PST by Bokababe
I'd argue for Slovenia. NATO & the EU have standards concerning democracy, human rights, the rule of law and so on--pretty good way to define a "civilized nation"; by their measures Slovenia is there now & Croatia is getting close--as soon as they turn in Gotovina.
Your Albanofascist friends were helping' your Ustasha friends to clean Croatia from Serbs....What a coincident...Mr. Spinmaster....!!!!
Sometimes. And sometimes side by side with the Nazis.
Yep...just like a bunch of Americans, who joined the Nazis during WWII...Nazi America: A Secret History
...and we don't even wanna start, what happened after WWII...
Most all of those from your link are damaged, not destroyed, and it happened during battle, probably as an exchange with Croat troops in the vicinity.
The Albanians in Kosovo DESTROYED over 150 churches and monasteries by blowing them up during "peace". There was no Serbian army or paramilitary nearby when the Albanians destroyed all those churches.
But quit playing this silly game about the Serbs defending Christian Europe when Milosevic and his minions fought four wars--two against Christian nations--destroyed hundreds of Christian churches and slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people, Christian & Muslim alike.
The Catholic churches within Serbia were untouched during that entire war and until this day.
Joan, read the descriptions next to each of the 1400+ destroyed or damaged Christian churches, monasteries, etc. It beggars belief that hundreds and hundreds of these were all hit accidentally. And how do you explain the churches listed that the Serbs looted, or dynamited or set on fire?
Then, the Croat army might have been drawing fire by shooting in the vicinity. Many are partly damaged, not destroyed:
And look at this next photo. It looks more like construction materials piled on the sides. It is sort of hard to see and tell what exactly is the damage, and what is with the black & white photography for pictures taken in the 1990’s? It’s like they try to obscure something by not allowing a colored picture:
Kosovo is not Serbia's :"neighbor", it is a breakaway province of Serbia, led by the terrorist KLA, which dominates the enslavement sex trade and heroin trafficing in Europe. The KLA ought to have been destroyed, not protected. It is nothing but an Al Queda vassal cell in the heart of Europe. "Kosovars" have massacred Serbians and even U.N. troops. They are unworthy of a "state". Your "sources" are a joke, totally unsubstantiated. Slobo killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people? While you're posting garbage like this, why not just say 7 million to top the Holocaust?
You were caught saying some patently incorrect things and your response was to blame my sources. Now go back and check my sources--do a cut and paste of what you disagree with and put it out here for discussion.
Where were those mass graves filled with 100,000 innocent Kosovars?
IN an irony that would have appealed to the imaginations of the ancient Greek tragedians, the very reforms designed to sever Australian soccer's connections with its murky ethnic past have brought that past violently back to life.
For 20 years, two soccer clubs in Sydney's southwest – the Serbian-backed Bonnyrigg White Eagles and Croatian-supported Sydney United – have played in separate leagues. But when Sydney United decided not to bid for a place in the new A-League, both sides found themselves back in the state league. After a 20-year cooling-off period, hostilities were resumed instantly at their first match last Sunday. There was a riot in which more than 100 fans battled each other and police, followed by violent incidents during the week, including the spraying of the Bonnyrigg clubhouse with gunfire.
What Sydneysiders, and all Australians, are wondering is how much of this latest urban violence is soccer related, how much is ethnic related, and how much is of the same kind we saw recently in nearby Macquarie Fields, as well as in Perth, where 250 drunken partygoers hurled bottles and rocks at police earlier this month. The answer seems to be, a bit of each. Simmering resentment between Serbs and Croats has been a longstanding and regrettable feature of Australian ethnic relations. Yet in Sydney, without the spark plug of soccer to ignite those resentments, the two groups have managed to live peacefully on each other's doorsteps. What this tells us is that A-League, the one-side-per-city competition designed to unite soccer's warring tribes, due to kick off in August, is long overdue. What it also tells us is that the other leagues will have to work hard to prevent the re-Balkanisation of soccer at state level.
The Serbs shelled Mostar. I've seen it. I was there in 1994 shortly after the war subsided. They also shelled the old Historic town of Dubrovnik. And the street fighting that did happen in Mostar. I believe the date was sometime in 1991 or 1992 that every gravesite had. They all had the same dates.
I don't know where you get your whitewash of the Serbs, but 1st person history paints a totally different picture.
And yes the Muslims also fought the Croats there, but the main killings of innocents there was done by the Serbs.
And as for the Serbs being Christian, well that reflected a bias. I have talked with many people who basically starved under Milosevic. They couldn't get good jobs since Milosevic required all those who wanted the good jobs to renounce their faith. I don't call that very Christian like.
Ok whatever, you can tell me what I've seen. You can tell me that I didn't see the hills from which the Serbs launched massive shelling in 1991 and 1992.
You can tell me that all the gravesites didn't have the same exact date in 1991. You can tell me that my friends who actually lived very close to the town, and who I've known over 15 years are lying despite the fact they're the most holy people I know.
You can tell me that those shell holes and twisted sites of buildings didn't exist.
You can believe your pro-Serb history, but I've lived it. I was there before the US intervened. I had friends there from America while the fighting was taking place. I have friends there from there, who actually fought. I lived it and heard about it 1st hand.
Yes I know about the Muslim/Croat fighting, and it was a much different part of town.
I've also seen where the Serbs destroyed the main Church in Mostar. I've seen a gravesite in Siroki Brijeg where the Serbs martyred over 20 Catholic priests since they wouldn't renounce their faith. I had a friend who actually had a gun placed in his mouth by the Serb army in order to try and get him to renounce his faith. It was a religious war, and every chance they got the Serbs destroyed every Catholic Church they could. Mostar's just the city I'm most familiar with, but I could go into Dubrovnik's shelling and fighting too if you want.
I'm slightly less familiar with Dubrovnik's battles, but I've seen firsthand the effects at the airport, the walled city, and the great hotel I once stayed at. All were damaged so severely it looked like they might as well just close. I don't know as many people in Dubrovnik, but I trust the Church and the city when they tell what happens.
The Serbs did fight the Croats, and they went on to massacre many. You just don't hear about it because it was against the Catholics, not the Muslims.
The Croats were known to launch attacks from churchesAnd I'm sure you have a source for this? And this is why they were attacked at times while Mass was ongoing?
About those priests – do you have a link and or lists of their names? Are you sure you aren’t mistaking this for WWII reprisal killings by the Partisans – said to kill 30 Friars in that town?
You can tell me that all the gravesites didn't have the same exact date in 1991.
The Bosnian war started in April 1992.
You can tell me that those shell holes and twisted sites of buildings didn't exist.
The Croat and Muslim forces could have done much of what you saw. When you arrived in 1994 was after the Croats had been shelling Mostar for over a year!
I'm slightly less familiar with Dubrovnik's battles, but I've seen firsthand the effects at the airport, the walled city, and the great hotel I once stayed at. All were damaged so severely it looked like they might as well just close. I don't know as many people in Dubrovnik, but I trust the Church and the city when they tell what happens.
Do you have any photos of the damaged walls? No one has ever shown a photo of any damage to its famous walls, and those who went to visit following the war and nowadays are amazed at how everything looks so perfectly authentic, except for new roofs. (I say its because they are looking at the original deal which was never damaged during the war.) Money given to Croatia for that war damage (which was much, much less than the media hyped) was discovered to be going to the 1979 earthquake damage which hadn’t been completely repaired.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Wouldn't there be news of this? I searched that town's name and could only find some killings by the Partisans in WWII. If that's what he's talking about then he's mixing WWII with the more recent war.
Croatian camps for Bosnian Muslims
Prof. Rizvanbegovic spent some time in Zagreb, and today he lives in Sarajevo where he is the Minister for Education in the government of the Bosnian Federation.
According to his estimate, during the summer months of 1993 there were about 20,000 Bosniaks in the "collection centers" all over Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna: in Gabela, Dretelj, Ljubusko, at Helidrom near Mostar, in Otoka near Vitina, Kocerin, Posusje, Duvno, Sujica, Bijelo Polje and Siroki Brijeg. In some of the camps prisoners were brutally tortured and murdered. It is known that tens of thousands Bosniaks died from the consequences of torture. Until today, none of the criminals has been tried; the commanders of the camps were promoted to new duties, while the "collection centers" were disbanded and emptied or are still used for the same purpose. It is necessary to remind that the infamous camps in Dretelj and Gabela are only half an hour drive from the Croatian border, right next to the highway, and that for months they hadn't been visited by a single Croatian official, nor a Croatian journalist, Catholic priest, Red Cross member.... In August 1993, Helsinki Watch members were denied access to the camp and then, as usually happens in such circumstances, the whole case reached foreign press. Then, the season of unpleasant questions for the Croatian public began, and the story started from its tail.
1st of all, in my other post about the gravesites, I said 1991 or 1992, then to you I said 1991. I'm not sure on the exact date, and its been 11 years since I saw them.
As for Dubrovnik's ancient wall damage, go to the city, right as you enter it there is a big picture map showing all the sites of the damage.
I guess I have no idea what I saw. The people who were there and could hear the shelling at night from the Serbs, they're all figments of their imagination.
Good thing my pics haven't been erased, Doh! I seem to have imagined them too. Wait no I haven't, there still where I thought I put them.
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