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To: King Prout

“ok, jimbo, here is a primer on what the founders meant, relying as much as is possible on the Constitution itself, utilizing reading comprehension and simple logic: “

I love arguments that begin this way. They usually depend on an utter lack of the desired logic. Lets see..

”1. Article I, Section 8:11
(Congress shall have the power) To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water

reading comprehension: Congress can issue permits to private individuals and corporations to attack the military and private possessions of foreign powers.

simple logic: to do so would require that these privateers have requisite arms. There is no mention anywhere in the Constitution of the government providing said arms to the privateer. Ergo: the privateer must be expected to have those arms in his private possession. Clearly, the Constitution implicitly recognizes a private individual right to own and operate heavy cannon or their equivalent. “

Logic errors

1. Assumes that government granting a right is the same as government being prohibited from abridging a right

2. Equates the private ownership of cannon with a constitutional right to own cannon without establishing such a right exists

3. Equates a private individual petitioning government for permission to wage war with a private citizen being called to muster involuntarily as part of the militia

4. Equates the authority to muster with arms by the militia with the ability to provide armed vessels, a relationship not demonstrated in the argument.

Lets go on:



”2. AMENDMENT II
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Reading comprehension:
well-regulated = well trained, equipped and functioning in a proper manner
Militia = for a definition of Militia as meant at the time, I must depart from the Constitution for a moment: Title 10, Sec. 311(a) U. S. Code- "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age...."
being necessary to the security of a free State = A Free State is secure if it is able to defend itself against foreign invasion and the tyranny of its own government. This is indisputably the intent of the Founders, supported by their extraconstitutional writings.
the right = natural or God-given, pre-existing the State and independent of the State, as opposed to government granted privileges
of the people = of individuals, like all other iterations of "the people" in the Constitution - not a "group" of people, the States, nor even "the Militia" as a group.
to keep and bear = keep (to own or possess) and bear (to carry, transport, have at immediate disposal)
Arms = weapons, including but not limited to firearms. Derives from Latin, in which the root word means the weapons and armor of soldiers (including ballistae) as well as the gear on a ship. It has nothing to do with the arms hanging off your shoulders, as the Latin for that is "bracchium"
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED = shall not, EVER, be violated or encroached upon in any way, including nitpicky legalistic wrangling over small-arms vs. crew-served weapons vs. artillery.

Logic: The Founders wanted us loaded for bear, that we the people can be and remain a constant caution and terror to those we elect as our representatives. This is heavily supported by the extraconstitutional writings of the Founders. This purpose logically implies possession of artillery is constitutionally licit, as even then artillery was a requisite of serious battle. “

Logic errors:

1. defines arms in a way that is not supported by the writings of the founders or by court decisions


2. Imputes meaning in the phrase “shall not be infringed” that he has not demonstrated by cite or link.

3. Confuses opinion with fact throughout.

4. In the section labeled “logic” makes leaps not supported by evidence. The founders said what they meant and meant what they said. They did not speak of artillery in terms of the second yet did speak of small arms. You offer no proof for your leaps in logic.




”3. AMENDMENT IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

Reading comprehension: Just because it isn't listed here does not mean the people do not have that right.

Logic: That blows a very large hole in the entirety of the arguments you have thus far presented. “

Logic error

You argue that the right to artillery is protected in the second amendment yet seem to rely on the 9th as a right existing yet unspecified . If it is covered by the second, why do you bring up the 9th? If it is only coverd by the 9th, why pretend it is covered by the second?

”4. AMENDMENT X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Reading Comprehension: If it is not specifically spelled out here, the government is not allowed to do it. PERIOD.

Logic: This blows a very large hole in your arguments, and in the legality of the 1938 FFA and all other federally-imposed limitations on civilian possession of military-grade arms.”

Logic errors:

1. See the note on the 9th.

2. I note a singular lack of legal cites in which this amendment has successfully protected any arm.

Simply too easy. If you want to make a constitutional case, you have to go from idea to idea using evidence to link the notions. You seem to leap about and make assumptions.

Again, just because something is legal or in common practice does not make it a protected right under the Constitution.


347 posted on 03/17/2005 10:43:26 AM PST by Jim Verdolini
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To: Jim Verdolini

no, Jim: I take several points specifically spelled out by the Constitution and draw a line connecting them.

you, on the other hand, ignore the plain meaning of the 9th and 10th Amendments. Indeed, you invert them.


349 posted on 03/17/2005 10:46:55 AM PST by King Prout (Remember John Adam!)
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To: Jim Verdolini

and, again: you are one of those who believe case law trumps the Constitution.


351 posted on 03/17/2005 10:48:23 AM PST by King Prout (Remember John Adam!)
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