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To: jackbob
The Pope hid Jews in Vatican basements while the Catholic Priests were carted off to Auschwitz.

During the Second World War, the Vatican State officially remained neutral. However, as Cardinal Pacelli, [the Pope] was against the Nazi's increasing political power in Germany and in August 1933 wrote to the British representative to the Holy See his disgust with the Nazis and "their persecution of the Jews, their proceedings against political opponents, the reign of terror to which the whole nation was subjected."

[...]

Pius XII's role during World War II has been a source of controversy. Pope Pius XII followed a policy of public neutrality during the Second World War mirroring that of Pope Benedict XV during the First World War. Pius's main argument for that policy was twofold. That public condemnation of Hitler and Nazism would have achieved little of practical benefit, given that his condemnation could effectively be censored and so unknown to German Catholics (who in any case had been told as early as the early 1930s by the German Roman Catholic hierarchy that Nazism and Catholicism were incompatible). Secondly, Pius argued that had he condemned Nazism more aggressively, the result would have been repression of Roman Catholicism within Nazi Germany, making the Church's efforts against Nazi policies at the parish level difficult. An "underground railroad" of secret escape routes had been set up by prominent Catholics such as Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty who operated under the tacit, if not implicit, approval of Pope Pius XII (as portrayed in the 1983 TV-movie "The Scarlet And The Black").

Although Pius XII is fiercely condemned by the press today for not explicitly condemning Nazism (see Hitler's Pope), it is estimated that about 300,000 Jews were saved through the Vatican during WWII. After the war had ended, Pius XII was praised by numerous Jewish organizations. The head rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism, citing as his reason Pius XII's witness to religious fraternity.

According to the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, "Preserving Vatican neutrality, and the capability of the Church to continue to function where possible in occupied Europe and Nazi-allied states, was a far better strategy to save lives than Church sanctions on a regime that would have merely laughed at them."

[...]

Joseph Goebbels was clear about the Reich's attitudes toward the Roman Catholic Church. His 26 March 1942 entry into his diary reads, "It's a dirty, low thing to do for the Catholic Church to continue its subversive activity in every way possible and now even to extend its propaganda to Protestant children evacuated from the regions threatened by air raids. Next to the Jews these politico-divines are about the most loathsome riffraff that we are still sheltering in the Reich. The time will come after the war for an over-all solution of this problem." (Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, p. 146)

(Source: Wikipedia)

The relations between the Vatican and Mussolini could have been a bit warmer, but not for ideological reasons.

Regarding fascism as state-worship, it is not even remotely a controversial proposition:

Mussolini, in a speech delivered on October 28, 1925, stated the following maxim that encapsulates the fascist philosophy: "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato." ("Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".) Therefore, he reasoned, all individuals' business is the state's business, and the state's existence is the sole duty of the individual.

(Source: Wikipedia)


312 posted on 05/03/2005 2:17:53 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
I thought our discussion had risen above boogeyman rhetoric. I guess not. At any rate, the Roman Catholic Church never got along with any government for any length of time. As it smuggled people to safety from the Nazis, it would smuggle SS men to safety from the allies after the war. The whole history of the church has been wrapped up in activities that stood in opposition to unacceptable conduct by secular powers.

While National Socialism and Fascism are quite similar in many ways, they are not the same. They both worked, independently of each other, with the church as allies on some fronts and opponents on other fronts. In both existed Catholics like Hitler Youth Leader Balder von Schirach, who successfully challenged Nazi euthanasia policies in the 1930s, and both had fanatical atheists like one time communist J. P. Goebbles. But all this says nothing about Fascism, which National Socialism was not.

Fascism as fascism on a large scale occurred only in two conntries Italy and Spain. In both it had conflicts with the Church. It also had good relations with the Church running simultaneously, depending on what aspect of church-state relations are being looked at (as has been pretty much the history of the church with all most all governments through out history). Fascist in general view themselves as a type of progressive conservative in alliance with the Church in a protracted struggle against atheistic communism and its allies the atheistic liberal democrats (no political party implied here). The church likewise, treated fascists as allies in that struggle, giving both moral and enthusiastic endorsements to their efforts.

Just as National Socialism is not the same as Fascism, so also Christian Fascism is not the same as Fascism. But the philosophies are quite similar. Of course Christian Fascists would never call themselves fascists, but by definition, that is pretty much what they are.

314 posted on 05/03/2005 3:48:13 PM PDT by jackbob
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