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To: jackbob
I also do not agree that the church was not a super state

The powerful and ardent pope, Gregory VII, sought in all earnestness to realize the Kingdom of God on earth under the guidance of the papacy. As successor of the Apostles of Christ, he claimed supreme authority in both spiritual and secular affairs. It seemed to this noble idealism that the successor of Peter could never act otherwise than according to the dictates of justice, goodness, and truth. In this spirit he claimed for the papacy supremacy over emperor, kings, and princes. But during the Middle Ages a rivalry had always existed between the popes and the emperors, twin representatives, so to speak, of authority. Henry III, the father of the young king, had even reduced the papacy to complete submission, a situation which Gregory now strove to reverse by crushing the imperial power and setting in its place the papacy. A long and bitter struggle was therefore unavoidable.

(Source: Conflict of Investitures)

In short, their was no system, only power plays.

That is a modern myth. It is impossible to read on the Middle Ages without constant reference to laws and covenants in effect at the time. It was a highly legalized society. But the point is not that both raw power and law existend in some kind of balance, just as today. The role of feudal proto-government -- the feudal lord -- was solely collective defense. Taxes levied by lay authority may have been high or low depending on many factors, but they went to support the only legitimate role of government -- defense of life and property, and delivery of justice. It was, particulalry in the early Middlel Ages, a direct trade of goods and labor for military protection.

291 posted on 04/20/2005 8:14:16 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
I'm a bit confused. You provide one example of of many that could be provided, where the super state (the papacy) sought to increase its authority... etc. That sounds to me like you are making my point.

It is impossible to read on the Middle Ages without constant reference to laws and covenants in effect at the time.

I agree. Should you read that history a little closer, you'll find that those in power were constantly making new law to replace inconvenient old law and that covenants in most cases changed so fast, they were hardly worth the paper they were written on.

Taxes levied by lay authority... went to support the only legitimate role of government -- defense... and... justice."

Taxes in those days were spent on adventurism and splendor for the elite much the same as in today's world. All of which can be argued as being in defense of the people, or providing justice. The only actual real world difference is that today people generally have a right to look at the records and a small say on what adventurism and splendor the money is going to be spent on. And of course, most important of all - today's people are much more free to live their own lives as they choose. With that comes a stability and prosperity that was not known in the middle ages.

292 posted on 04/21/2005 4:16:27 AM PDT by jackbob
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