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To: annalex; BradyLS
You misunderstood altruism.

As a 12-year old I misunderstood YOUR altruism; but it WAS the pure altruism of Immanuel Kant, Auguste Comte AND MY PARENTS -- and the parents of many other youths who actually did commit suicide, possibly including that 14-year-old prodigy last week. For Comte, altruism is not simple benevolence or charity, but rather the moral and political obligation of the individual to sacrifice his own interests for the sake of a greater social good.

Part of my thinking at the time was, well, if I helped anyone, then I WOULD GET A BENEFIT FROM A BETTER WORLD, and even if it were incrementally better world I WOULD STILL GET A BENEFIT AND THEREFORE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EVIL -- unless I killed myself immediately upon doing the good deed, so I wouldn't benefit. OR else -- get this -- I could help a criminal, NOT TO REFORM -- BUT TO BE A CRIMINAL. Then I'd be "helping" someone and NOT GETTING A BENEFIT -- but that was obviously ludicrous.

These were pretty heavy thoughts for a thoughtful kid who wanted to be good, but couldn't figure out how with the corrupted teachings I was given. Have you ever had to work through inner turmoil and conflict because of corrupted teachings yourself? It can be crushing for a sickly kid with poor guidance, if any. Castigating a 12-year-old kid for "misunderstanding" something still shows a stark lack of compassion on your part, IMO.

161 posted on 03/21/2005 10:18:20 PM PST by FreeKeys ("Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." -- Euripides)
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To: FreeKeys

Now you are not a 12 year old, so my lack of compassion to your confusion a long time ago does not translate to a lack of compassion to you, -- and beside, my shortcomings are not exactly the point, are they?

If Rand was opposed to the idea that one is under the moral and political obligation of the individual to kill himself, then she was right, of course, in her opposition. But she built nothing positive out of that.

I'd be willing to continue this, but not tonight. Feel free to explore more, it is a good topic, and I did not mean to come across brusque.


162 posted on 03/21/2005 10:36:19 PM PST by annalex
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To: FreeKeys; annalex; BradyLS
Its been a very interesting discussion you all have had. My take is that their actually are no true altruists. I see the entire notion of altruism as completely phony. There are only selfish people seeking different kinds of rewards.

Some are fooled into not recognizing their own selfishness being satisfied by some of the rewards and call it altruism. While others seeking those same rewards find a good deal of self satisfaction in their own selfish giving.

This concept can be expanded all the way to the risking of ones own life for others. But taking it one step beyond that to the actual giving of ones life for another brings rationality in to question in most, but not all cases. For example, a mother giving her life to save her child's life, I think could be called an act of rational selfishness, in most cases.

This view of altruism and selfishness I learned from arguing with the writings of Rand. Its been so many years since I read Rand's stuff, that it is now impossible for me to draw a line between what is from Rand and what is from myself and others. But I must giveher the credit for the insight, even if all of it is not hers.

183 posted on 03/22/2005 1:00:48 PM PST by jackbob
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