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There are valid criticisms of evolution
Wichita Eagle ^ | 3/9/2005 | David berlinski

Posted on 03/09/2005 1:46:32 PM PST by metacognative

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To: xzins; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; marron; PatrickHenry; js1138; Right Wing Professor
Life as we know it on earth shares these characteristics of other items we know to have been designed. As Alamo-Girl has carefully explained, the information systems within living organisms are so complex that they entirely defy randomness.

Well said, xzins!

461 posted on 03/10/2005 9:04:07 AM PST by betty boop (If everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking. -- Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: OhioAttorney

OK then we are not in disagreement.


462 posted on 03/10/2005 9:04:58 AM PST by Williams
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To: Alamo-Girl; xzins; marron; PatrickHenry; js1138
Personally, I'd like for everyone to ditch the fallacy of quantizing a continuum as cause to dismiss evidence (e.g. fossil evidence, life v non-life/death) and rather consider the quantization a fallacy only when it is used improperly in the analysis.

In the case of fossil evidence, which are quantized from the continuum, I would rather they be matched against a feasible model for the rise of autonomy, semiosis and complexity. If they don't fit the model - then either the model is bad or the evidence is bad and one should try again. If no model fits, then Occam's Razor indicates intelligent design.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, Alamo-Girl! Thank you for the excellent post/essay.

463 posted on 03/10/2005 9:06:41 AM PST by betty boop (If everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking. -- Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: Conspiracy Guy
Where did the Species come from?

There's a book by a dead white guy that I recommended.

Good starting point on the subject

464 posted on 03/10/2005 9:08:22 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (The true danger is when Liberty is nibbled away, for expedients. - Edmund Burke (1799))
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To: betty boop

I appreciate your kindness, bb.

I take a far back seat in this discussion to you and AG.


465 posted on 03/10/2005 9:10:53 AM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of it!)
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To: Conspiracy Guy

"Why should I debate balderdash. Seems pointless. Once again, enjoy yourself"


It is clear you can't debate it. I try to make a logical argument and you call me a flamer, without even trying to answer my points. You insult people and say *Well, I guess I am a jerk then* as if that excuses it or makes you look smart. Don't worry, there's no need to guess. You are a jerk.


466 posted on 03/10/2005 9:11:00 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman
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To: betty boop

Why is it well said. Evolution is not random. Casinos use random processes, but there is nothing random about their profit margin. what would it take to convince you that random variation can result in order when subjected to an iterative process of selection?

Consider a topiary or a hedge. Is their design the result of a growth algorithm, or the result of pruning?


467 posted on 03/10/2005 9:11:28 AM PST by js1138
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To: DoctorMichael

Deeply fearful that evidence matters in science?


468 posted on 03/10/2005 9:11:48 AM PST by metacognative (eschew obfuscation)
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To: Liberal Classic
I'm not exactly demanding philosophical answers from science. I reacted to those who seem to think science has answered everything and it's all just random physical interactions. Or perhaps that there are no valid philosophical or religious questions, those being a superstitious waste of time by the non emprical.

But if you read about cosmology, particle physics and so on, scientists do end up getting into the big questions, because at a certain point their ability to observe or explain things finds its limits. At that point they either declare something unknowable, or they begin speculations that take on a metaphysical tone. This happens when they get "inside" a black hole, or before the big bang, and they declare that all the rules we observe in this world like time and space vanish. at that point they are describing something they can't measure or understand, and they become very upset if it is suggested taht God or even an "intelligent design" is manifesting itself.

But then intelligent design is a scientific theory, and not necessarily one based on God.

469 posted on 03/10/2005 9:14:14 AM PST by Williams
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To: Oztrich Boy

Read it 30 years ago. Has it gotten better?


470 posted on 03/10/2005 9:18:07 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Reading is fundamental. Comprehension is optional.)
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To: Elsie
m=E/c2

Okay, where'd the energy come from? All you've done is reorganize the equation, it doesn't explain how the energy got there in the first place- no different than saying that energy from friction is transformed into heat.

Obfuscation only works at DU....

471 posted on 03/10/2005 9:19:01 AM PST by jsmith48 (www.isupatriot.com)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Is irrelevence your life's work, or just a hobby? You are good at it.


472 posted on 03/10/2005 9:19:24 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Reading is fundamental. Comprehension is optional.)
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To: Williams
OK then we are not in disagreement.

Not that I'm aware of. My original post (in brief defense of science against an extremely silly attack) was not intended as a defense of 'scientific' materialism. In fact I've seen quite a bit in your posts with which I agree in spirit if not in detail.

473 posted on 03/10/2005 9:19:57 AM PST by OhioAttorney
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To: OhioAttorney
Wow we just got quite a boost from a very credible scientific source:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1360124/posts?page=1

474 posted on 03/10/2005 9:22:10 AM PST by Williams
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To: metacognative
Deeply fearful that evidence matters in science?

No, but as I said, I am also deeply concerned over the future of Conservatism.

Are you a michael moore conspiracy guy?

I notice that in your first post to me (#440) that you've already inserted an insult. It is stuff like this that makes me "deeply fearful" for the future of Conservatism. This doesn't bode well to any future interaction between us.

Best of luck.

475 posted on 03/10/2005 9:24:58 AM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth Estate is a Fifth Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Conspiracy Guy

"Is irrelevence your life's work, or just a hobby? You are good at it."

Is being a jerk something you were born as or did you evolve into it?
There are people here in this thread who I totally disagree with on this point but who are at least respectful and try to answer people's points. Even if I agreed with you 100% in this, you would still be a snarky jerk who I would be ashamed to have on my side.
Comprehension truly is critical.


476 posted on 03/10/2005 9:27:54 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman
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To: Alamo-Girl

Speaking of quantisizing a continuum...
when I was a kid, I had a comic with a stick figure man
in the top corner. When you flipped the pages, he ran.
Shouldn't a random sample of fossil jaw bones
form the same sort of continuum through species?
I suspect the random sample we have shows the truth;
unconnected groups that don't run.


477 posted on 03/10/2005 9:28:56 AM PST by metacognative (eschew obfuscation)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

You really have trouble being dismissed don't you.


478 posted on 03/10/2005 9:30:38 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Reading is fundamental. Comprehension is optional.)
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To: js1138
Consider a topiary or a hedge. Is their design the result of a growth algorithm, or the result of pruning?

The topiary design is the result of pruning; but first there had to be a growing plant to prune.

To answer your question: "What would it take to convince you that random variation can result in order when subjected to an iterative process of selection?" I don't know, but I haven't seen it yet. Especially when it's not order, but increasing complexity that's at issue.

479 posted on 03/10/2005 9:35:15 AM PST by betty boop (If everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking. -- Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: DoctorMichael

I quote you; "creationism is a theory put forward to undermine conservatism." I thought it was put forward by bible believing christians. Who's behind this?


480 posted on 03/10/2005 9:35:49 AM PST by metacognative (eschew obfuscation)
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