Here's how the T-4 program started.
Nazi poster bearing the phrase, translated from German, "A strong and healthy nurse is there only to give care to a dangerous madman. Shouldn't we be ashamed?"
Here's how it ended.
Any questions?
Posted on 02/22/2005 1:00:01 PM PST by nickcarraway
A group of about a dozen students and activists wearing "Save Terri Schiavo" T-shirts stood outside the Reitz Union on the University of Florida campus at noon Monday.
As students hustled past on their way to lunch, the demonstrators asked passersby to sign a petition calling on Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer to step down from the case that has been fought in the courts for nearly eight years.
Schiavo, now 41, suffered severe brain damage 15 years ago. She resides in a Pinellas Park hospice. Her husband, who has testified that his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially, has asked that her feeding tube be removed.
That order could come from the 2nd District Court of Appeal as early as 1 p.m. today.
Schiavo's brother, 40-year-old Bobby Schindler, was in Gainesville for the rally. Schindler argued that a dozen doctors who have voluntarily looked into his sister's case believe that she could be helped, that with intensive therapy, she could be taught to speak and eat on her own again.
"We are trying to educate people as to the facts of this case," Schindler said. "Nobody knows the facts, because they aren't being reported to the public."
Some doctors have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery. Others have said she still has some mental capabilities. She left no written directive for her family or her husband to follow.
Brother Paul O'Donnell of the Franciscan Brothers of Peace of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis was among the speakers at Monday's rally.
The black-robed Franciscan brother said the eyes of the nation are on Florida, and the decision in the Schiavo case which could come today.
If the court rules that Schiavo's feeding tube must be removed so that she can die, O'Donnell said it would launch "a tsunami of euthanasia."
Schiavo is not in a coma, and she is not brain dead, he insisted.
"She is a disabled, brain-injured woman who uses a plastic tube to eat instead of a knife and fork," O'Donnell said.
"If Florida kills Terri Schiavo, there are hundreds of thousands of residents in nursing homes in this state who need a nurse's aide to feed them, or are dependent upon feeding tubes, who could find themselves in the same position. It would be the start of a tsunami of euthanasia."
The Schiavo case has drawn international attention and rallied right-to-life and religious forces worldwide.
Matthew Irwin heads the student group Gators for Terri, which sponsored the rally. Irwin said he hoped to send a message to Judge Greer, who is a graduate of UF's Levin College of Law, that not everyone supports the position of the court.
"We believe that Terri has the right to live," Irwin said.
"If anyone knows of any documents that support killing Terri, please contact me."
Those documents are all of the ones that have gone against the Schiavo family & associates in the courts, including the Supreme Court of the U.S. You just can't accept it and therefore rail against it. Fine. But in the end, those legal documents will allow Michael Schiavo to put his wife's body where it belongs, in the ground, as her soul is already in heaven. By the way, you know Terri personally about as much as I do. Didn't know you had to know someone personally in order to have an opinion. Guess the Free Republic website would have to be shut down if your theory of having to know someone to express an opinion was the rule. You might try some logical thinking sometime in your life.
Since you seem to have a problem reading the posts, let me point out that I did not say what you claim. I was responding to someone else's post. Have your fishamander eating cats go back and read it to you.
Would you like to make an attempt at backing up your lies? Where are the documents you pretend exist? There aren't any. If there were, you would produce some evidence of them. You're so adamant that Terri must be killed, if you had anything to back it up, you wouldn't hide it.
Where did you get the idea that you're a conservative? When you advocate the murder of non-producers, that is hardly a conservative view point. And don't try to pretend you don't know it's murder. You've been around long enough to know.
Notice too that the media - including Fox are all hiding the fact that the so-called husband is living with and has children with another woman..
Somehow - when the family gets face time on TV - or are on the radio - they have to educate the public about this!!
FReepers know this - but the public has not been told the truth about this case.
Look, I'll be honest with you. There may be some FReepers who have jumped in based on ideology on both sides. However, I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say that Terri's most dedicated and vociferous Freepers are ones who have done thorough checking into this case. I mean THOROUGH!!
There are plenty of ways to find out information about this case without *trusting* the news sources. Look at the documents themselves. Read the court transcripts. I've done a little sleuthing myself and have found that Michael would not be one of my kind of people to hang out with.
Some rather enterprising FReepers have found court records that show he is the kind of guy who likes to sue people. His involvement with this case and the malpractice one are only two of at least a half dozen that he has participated in (the others have nothing to do with Terri, and everything to do with money and blaming someone else). You can't find *everything* on the internet, but you can find out a lot about someone's character. More than we ought to be able to know about each other, but I digress.
The point is, Michael Schiavo and the other players in this case are unsavory, unscrupulous, and sometimes downright nutty people. Take for instance, George Felos, Michael's main attorney. This guy is a nutcase and should possibly be in an institution himself. Please read up on his book, HIS VERY OWN WORDS, and you will see what I mean. The guy is deranged! His book is called, "Litigation as Spiritual Practice". Google it and you can find excerpts all over the internet.
The doctors this guy has are not far off from Jack Kevorkian himself. They belong to the Hemlock Society. Hey, I'm all for refusing medical intervention if you don't want it, but taking a little too much morphine is going over the top for me.
At any rate, I'm suggesting that myself and many other FReepers you will find on these Terri threads are not the wackos we've been cast as. We are good, hard-working, educated people, and we know how to get information that the MSM just doesn't want to put out for a variety of reasons. We are well-informed BECAUSE we don't depend on the regular news sources for our information.
So all of the following people must be killed?
All patients with PVS, who may recover, and who never expressed a desire to die.
All patient with brain damage who are not PVS, are not likely to recover, and who never expressed a desire to die.
Just kill them all? That's sick! Or is it just Terri you have a problem with? If so, how is she less deserving than than the thousands of others who fit your description of a life not deserving?
Here's how the T-4 program started.
Nazi poster bearing the phrase, translated from German, "A strong and healthy nurse is there only to give care to a dangerous madman. Shouldn't we be ashamed?"
Here's how it ended.
Any questions?
JONLANE ADDED: "I was making a point that people are often too quick to take sides in situations which they don;t know much about based on their general ideologies, without completely understanding all of the issues. Maybe this is not one of those cases.."
Most of us here at FR have been investigating the FACTS for MONTHS, if not YEARS. We are quite well versed about the situation and the ramifications for ALL Americans, not just for Terri.
Bottom Line: The CAUSE of Terri's "condition" needs to be investigated.
There is VERY significant evidence that Terri's two-timing-father-of-two-bastard-children-possible-BOTCHED-ATTEMPTED-MURDERER-not-legally-qualified-guardian-husband Michael probably CAUSED Terri's condition and may have attempted to kill her SEVERAL times via insulin injections.
If Terri were to ever get the THERAPY Michael was PAID for but REFUSED to give her AFTER he was PAID for it, she most likely would be able to relearn to SPEAK and IMPLICATE him in numerous murder attempts. Obviously, he cannot let that happen, nor can he allow Terri to be evaluated either before or after death...hence the need to have her EVIDENCE-BODY CREMATED.
Why not try to feed Terri by mouth (either before or after Terri's feeding tube is removed). If Terri reaches her head out to the spoon/fork/cup to partake of the food/drink, then TERRI WILL HAVE MADE HER CHOICE FOR LIFE VIA SEEKING FOOD/DRINK!!!!!
well, I truly respect both your opinion and the effort you have put into trying to understand this situation. I can honestly say that I have learned a great deal from what you have said.
And thank you for respecting my opinion.
How long should you be kept alive? Terri is not a hypothetical person. She's very real, and very alive. Terri knows enough to be afraid of what her estranged husband is trying to do to her. If you had her intelligence, you would know know enough not to push for an agenda that could one day result in your own murder.
Read the following excerpt from Logan's Run. It's just a sci fi movie, but the following exchange reveals something true about human nature. Think about it.
VOICE: He's lying. No Sandman ever ran.The next time you think you're hungry, and you put something in your mouth to solve the problem, think about Terri.2ND VOICE: You don't run. You kill runners. You have killed runners all your life.
LOGAN: Yes I have. Now it's my turn. And I want to live.
Probably the same place the rest of us saw it. In the court transcripts.
DUH.
"Maybe this is not one of those cases."
Welcome to FR.
Go to Hades, troll.
You have a point. Tonight, they've been reminding me of Logan's Run. Ever see it? See my post #91.
I wouldn't be so sure.
Terri's smarter than the lot of you. When she was told what her estranged husband was planning to do, she tried to get away. She wasn't able, but she was smart enough to try. You're pushing an agenda that could bring about your own murder. Not real bright.
Great post, Ohio. : )
Jon, hi again. : )
I started out just like you a few weeks ago. Went on a research binge. lol Everything I could get my hands on... I have the trial transcript open here now - been slugging thru it for hours.
Anyway...
As you know, I am an advocate of the Oregon right-to-die law too. And, I have made my wishes as clear as I can in great detail - I would not want to go on in a state where I could not reliably communicate, either.
So, from that perspective, I'll give you my opinion in case it helps.
I think there is a lot of exaggeration on these threads with regard to 2 things.... one, her responsiveness and prognosis, and two, his culpability for her original collapse.
BUT... after reading all his testimony, I do not believe he is telling the truth about her making her wishes clear.
I also believe that he has shown a very callous disregard for her physical, and possibly mental, comfort in the last 7 years.
I think he does it mainly to spite her parents, but also because he has convinced himself (or tried) that there is absolutely zero consciousness within her. He couldn't live with himself if he thought, or had to admit, there were.
He could easily give her and her parents a 6 month to 1 year "trial" of therapy and re-evaluation. After all these years, techniques have advanced.
But he wont even try. Not even keeping the tube in.
Because of these things, under these circumstances, I think it is very wrong, and a dangerous precedent would be set, to have her tube pulled.
Anyway, that's what I've concluded, FWIW. If you have questions you don't want to post, feel free to freepmail me.
And because so much time had passed, people forgot the Holocaust. There was a time when we were horrified at what the Nazis committed.
i pose another question: if there were someway (of course, there is not) to know for sure that terri would not want to continue to live in this state, would you still oppose the removal of her feeding tube?
If Terri had stated to her father (as your father did to you) that she did not want medical intervention, any reasonable person would have to respect that.
That is not the case with Terri.
A woman just came out of a 20 year coma. How much press has that gotten? How often have you heard people talk about it?
I just don't like hearing people inventing rights that are non-existant and deny rights we do have.
"Just kill them all? That's sick! Or is it just Terri you have a problem with? If so, how is she less deserving than than the thousands of others who fit your description of a life not deserving?"
"Ever hear of the Nazi T-4 euthanasia program? Your statements are a perfect English translation of the statements from their war crimes trial."
Look, you, on the other hand, obviously have no interest in considering anyone's opinions who doesn't 100 perecent agree with you. You take something I said out of context to say i want to kill thousands of people, or I specifically have something against Terri? Then you compare me to Nazis??? Do you have any idea how to have a civilized debate or argument?
I'm surprised you skipped calling me a bad american, calling me a god-hater, or a terrorist, not for disagreeing with your position, but for simply questioning it. You went straight for the big one and called me a nazi.
You will never convince anyone of your opinions like that, you'll only make enemies.
I see that the efforts to make Terri's case and gain a supporter here have once again likely been destroyed since your excellent and thoughtful post, ohio.
Insulting and degrading even honest and polite questioners... running them off as though the effort at showing some diplomacy isn't worth converting a few "souls". What a shame.
Jon, if you can, just ignore them.
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