Schiavo's brother seeks to educate at campus rally

The Gainesville Sun ^ | February 22. 2005 | DIANE CHUN

[nickcarraway]

A group of about a dozen students and activists wearing "Save Terri Schiavo" T-shirts stood outside the Reitz Union on the University of Florida campus at noon Monday.

As students hustled past on their way to lunch, the demonstrators asked passersby to sign a petition calling on Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer to step down from the case that has been fought in the courts for nearly eight years.

Schiavo, now 41, suffered severe brain damage 15 years ago. She resides in a Pinellas Park hospice. Her husband, who has testified that his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially, has asked that her feeding tube be removed.

That order could come from the 2nd District Court of Appeal as early as 1 p.m. today.

Schiavo's brother, 40-year-old Bobby Schindler, was in Gainesville for the rally. Schindler argued that a dozen doctors who have voluntarily looked into his sister's case believe that she could be helped, that with intensive therapy, she could be taught to speak and eat on her own again.

"We are trying to educate people as to the facts of this case," Schindler said. "Nobody knows the facts, because they aren't being reported to the public."

Some doctors have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery. Others have said she still has some mental capabilities. She left no written directive for her family or her husband to follow.

Brother Paul O'Donnell of the Franciscan Brothers of Peace of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis was among the speakers at Monday's rally.

The black-robed Franciscan brother said the eyes of the nation are on Florida, and the decision in the Schiavo case which could come today.

If the court rules that Schiavo's feeding tube must be removed so that she can die, O'Donnell said it would launch "a tsunami of euthanasia."

Schiavo is not in a coma, and she is not brain dead, he insisted.

"She is a disabled, brain-injured woman who uses a plastic tube to eat instead of a knife and fork," O'Donnell said.

"If Florida kills Terri Schiavo, there are hundreds of thousands of residents in nursing homes in this state who need a nurse's aide to feed them, or are dependent upon feeding tubes, who could find themselves in the same position. It would be the start of a tsunami of euthanasia."

The Schiavo case has drawn international attention and rallied right-to-life and religious forces worldwide.

Matthew Irwin heads the student group Gators for Terri, which sponsored the rally. Irwin said he hoped to send a message to Judge Greer, who is a graduate of UF's Levin College of Law, that not everyone supports the position of the court.

"We believe that Terri has the right to live," Irwin said.

[KDubRN]

Question:

If a person is brain dead, wouldn't that person have to be
on total life support? The brain would be unable to
keep the organs functioning?


No and no

[KDubRN]

in the case of zero brain activity, you are correct. However, in many cases of injury or blood loss to the brain, the medulla, which controls respiration, heart rate, and other basal, non-voluntary functions, is left intact, while the cerebral cortex, which is where we think, can be completely destroyed. The reason is a difference in the path of blood flow and a longer survival time of the medulla tissue in the absence of blood. Basically, the medulla is the major priority, as it is also the last to go during excessive alcohol intake.

PVS is characterized as someone who has a completely non-functioning, destroyed cerebral cortex, but a functioning medulla, and perhaps cerebellum, which takes care of balance, and something else i cant remember. Other bodily functions, such as digestion, control of body temperature, etc, are largely controlled by hormones.

So, someone in this state can theoretically be a 100% unconsious, but be able to live indefinitely with a continuous source of nutrients and water.


Zero brain activity is simply that; no brain activity, a flat EEG. Organs and physiological functions can still occur due to the brain stem, if that portion is intact.

Medulla:
Function:
Controls Autonomic Functions
Relays Nerve Signals Between the Brain and Spinal Cord

The medulla oblongata is the lower portion of the brainstem. It is inferior to the pons and anterior to the cerebellum.

Brainstem:
Function:

Alertness

Arousal

Breathing

Blood Pressure

Contains Most of the Crainal Nerves

Digestion

Heart Rate

Other Autonomic Functions

Relays Information Between the Peripheral Nerves and Spinal Cord to the Upper Parts of the Brain

What is Coma and Persistent Vegetative State?
A coma is a profound or deep state of unconsciousness. An individual in a state of coma is alive but unable to move or respond to his or her environment. Coma may occur as a complication of an underlying illness, or as a result of injuries, such as head trauma.

A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands.

What is the prognosis?


The outcome for coma and persistent vegetative state depends on the cause, severity, and site of neurological damage. Individuals may emerge from coma with a combination of physical, intellectual, and psychological difficulties that need special attention. Recovery usually occurs gradually, with some acquiring more and more ability to respond. Some individuals never progress beyond very basic responses, but many recover full awareness. Individuals recovering from coma require close medical supervision. A coma rarely lasts more than 2 to 4 weeks. Some patients may regain a degree of awareness after persistent vegetative state. Others may remain in that state for years or even decades. The most common cause of death for someone in a persistent vegetative state is infection, such as pneumonia.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/coma/coma.htm

[Regulator]

Since I have been in on too many FR marathons, I didn't keep up with things here last night. I have children and the wifey to consider. But I will say this about BikerBayb: she may seem unyielding and relentless, but that is the way you have to be to prevent the slow, insidious grinding down of the foundations of our society.

You can't let principles be chattered away. We've all seen it before, the "Yes but" crowd, dissembling, equivocating, and rationalizing that which is...simply wrong. Once you go along with the idea of "gray areas", where does it stop? It never does - madmen like Felos fasten their fangs into the issue and pull it as far as they can in their direction. The guy is a murderer, period. He sees other humans as disposable if they don't meet his self imposed criteria for living. What else can you call such a person?

So BB may seem unyielding, but in your posts she smells vacillation that could lead to the dam bursting. And then comes the flood: death on demand, by whatever Kangaroo Court that appoints itself to be God. Don't like Granny, think she's been around too long? No Problem. She's gone. Just file the request. You get the farm.

BB said this: Who has the right to decide that someone doesn't have the right to live, just because of the level of their disability?

That's it in a nutshell. All the half-baked attempts to use the English language to make some criteria fall in front of this argument. Instead of arguing over the line, why try to draw the line in the first place?

40 years ago virtually everyone in this country believed in God. Everyone really did go to church. We all believed that only God has the right to take life absent mortal threat or righteous retribution. Whether you believe in God or not doesn't matter; the existence of a code of belief like that created a society where human life was central - not a disposable artifact, subject to judicial whim. And even for the nonbelievers, that meant a society that valued them, no matter what their condition. Especially if there was nothing they could do about their condition. Do you see how this argument also led to the civil rights movement?

BB is right to hold the line, be rabid about her position. The moment she lets up, and starts to admit that a gray area might exist, all of the foundations of her principles cave in. And the forces of darkness close in.

And much as I might like to "rationally discuss it", I have to conclude that her position is the right one: stick to the basic principle. We have seen societies that opened the door just a bit, and then a cold wind blew it open, and in rushed unseen evil. So you just have to slam the door shut, and not consider it.

That's all.

[Anita1]

In Response to Durango's "conservative" comments -

A definition of an Internet Troll:

"What is a Troll?
An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.

Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.

Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words."

And - "A person who makes posts (on newsgroups or other forums) that are solely intended to provoke responses from others,..."


Durango Definitely falls into that category of an Internet Troll!

[BykrBayb]

You expressed that very well. Thank you for taking the time to put those thoughts to words, and share them with us. I agree 100%.

[Wampus SC]

"Polling was conducted by telephone October 28-29, 2003 in the evenings. The sample is 900 registered voters nationwide with a margin of error of ±3 percentage points."

Oct. 28-29th 2003, huh? Support for letting Terri live has increased greatly in the last year & 4 months. Must be why you didn't use a more current one?

[Wampus SC]

Oh, it's you (*) back again with the same stuff.

[Hey folks! What was that I was saying about an outbreak unlike any we've seen? Oldies-but-baddies too! Whew!]

[Wampus SC]

Bravo! Absolutely true! BykrBayb - hold the line, stay the course. What we face - even here - is unrelenting, pure-D evil. Evil never negotiates a position, and takes willingness to do so as weakness. Evil exploits our civility, hoping that if we're embarrassed into "niceness" we won't say or do what's necessary to stop it in its tracks. The only thing evil responds to is, "No, this will not stand! I will not allow it to pass!"

It has to be rooted out and exposed for what it is, whatever, wherever, and whoever it is and stopped - before it becomes powerful enough become the official policy in this country.

In other words, you're doin' good... :)

[BykrBayb]

Thank you. After the spanking I took from one of Terri's own supporters last night, this reassurance that I'm not alone in my position has been a welcome salve.

There are people who support Terri's right to live because she has a high level enough of cognition. And yet these people would be all for exterminating her if her condition declined to whatever point they've set the bar at. One of Terri's supporters slapped me down last night for insisting that all disabled patients should be protected against murder; not just Terri.

I'd stick to my guns even if nobody agreed, but it sure is comforting to know I'm not alone.

[jonlane]

A functioning medulla does not come up on the EEG? Perhaps.. I did not know that.

AS for the other stuff you wrote (i dont really see the point of it since you didnt give an explanation), if that is the official definition of PVS, and the one we are using, then I would withdraw my previous statements about the condition. However, my point was that a large amount of the discussion was based on a misunderstanding, mostly due to me using a mmuch stricter definition (i suppose an outdated one, if what you have posted is the current NIH definition) of PVS

[daylate-dollarshort]

In March 2000, the Court found that after testimony from three doctors, (two of which presented by the Schlinders), three swallowing tests had been performed and that Terri had been seen regularly by a speech pathologist. Terri at that time failed the swallowing tests and could not be removed from the feeding tube.

Clearly, Terri was not eating in March, 2002 nor prior to that time because if she was, surely the Schlindlers would have presented the evidence.

Again, where did the information that Terri “was eating” come from.

[daylate-dollarshort]

"March 2002" should read "March 2000"

[BykrBayb]

I hate when you rookies don't pay attention. One more time - read the transcript! You're relying on the opinions of others to tell you what to believe. If you want to know what's in the transcript, read the transcript. What's so complicated about that?

[daylate-dollarshort]

BS!

I'm taking this from a court document posted on Terri's fight.org- or are they posting lies??

[BykrBayb]

Was my post really that difficult for you to understand? See if you can find a little kid to explain it to you. I'm kinda busy right now.

[jackibutterfly]

"Clearly, Terri was not eating in March, 2002 nor prior to that time because if she was, surely the Schlindlers would have presented the evidence.

Daylate-dollarshort - what you fail to realize is that the Schlinders presented mountainloads of evidence, but Greer has refused to see/admit it.

[Drango]

Must be why you didn't use a more current one?

I don't put a lot of stock in polls, but here is a scientific poll from today.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/printfullstory.aspx?storyid=32986

..................................................

By First Coast News Staff

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- According to our latest exclusive Survey USA poll, the majority of people on the First Coast think Terri Schiavo's husband should be allowed to remove her feeding tube.

Of those polled, 55% percent say the tube being to use to feed the severely brain damaged woman should be removed.

36% of those polled say Michael Schiavo shouldn't be allowed to remove it.

9% aren't sure.

Terri Schiavo has been in a vegetative state since a heart attack 15 years ago.

February 23, 2005 results

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view. This exclusive, scientific poll was conducted by Survey USA.

[Ohioan from Florida]

Goodnight prayer for Terri!

[Wampus SC]

"There are people who support Terri's right to live because she has a high level enough of cognition. And yet these people would be all for exterminating her if her condition declined to whatever point they've set the bar at."

Yeah, I tangled with one like that. Kept moving that bar to *make sure* Terri would be killable. Got him to lay his whole philosophy on the table, and he explicitly stated that a human has no intrinsic value. And that's how he justified forced euthanasia. That's the root belief of those pushing the death culture - that humans are worthless. Since all who believe this are also humans, it must be how they view themselves. Serious problem, that is.

[Wampus SC]

"I don't put a lot of stock in polls"

OK, since you don't, then I shouldn't either....

I get it - the reason you've repeatedly posted that outdated poll is because you don't put much stock in polls. Figures.