Posted on 02/22/2005 1:00:01 PM PST by nickcarraway
A group of about a dozen students and activists wearing "Save Terri Schiavo" T-shirts stood outside the Reitz Union on the University of Florida campus at noon Monday.
As students hustled past on their way to lunch, the demonstrators asked passersby to sign a petition calling on Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer to step down from the case that has been fought in the courts for nearly eight years.
Schiavo, now 41, suffered severe brain damage 15 years ago. She resides in a Pinellas Park hospice. Her husband, who has testified that his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially, has asked that her feeding tube be removed.
That order could come from the 2nd District Court of Appeal as early as 1 p.m. today.
Schiavo's brother, 40-year-old Bobby Schindler, was in Gainesville for the rally. Schindler argued that a dozen doctors who have voluntarily looked into his sister's case believe that she could be helped, that with intensive therapy, she could be taught to speak and eat on her own again.
"We are trying to educate people as to the facts of this case," Schindler said. "Nobody knows the facts, because they aren't being reported to the public."
Some doctors have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery. Others have said she still has some mental capabilities. She left no written directive for her family or her husband to follow.
Brother Paul O'Donnell of the Franciscan Brothers of Peace of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis was among the speakers at Monday's rally.
The black-robed Franciscan brother said the eyes of the nation are on Florida, and the decision in the Schiavo case which could come today.
If the court rules that Schiavo's feeding tube must be removed so that she can die, O'Donnell said it would launch "a tsunami of euthanasia."
Schiavo is not in a coma, and she is not brain dead, he insisted.
"She is a disabled, brain-injured woman who uses a plastic tube to eat instead of a knife and fork," O'Donnell said.
"If Florida kills Terri Schiavo, there are hundreds of thousands of residents in nursing homes in this state who need a nurse's aide to feed them, or are dependent upon feeding tubes, who could find themselves in the same position. It would be the start of a tsunami of euthanasia."
The Schiavo case has drawn international attention and rallied right-to-life and religious forces worldwide.
Matthew Irwin heads the student group Gators for Terri, which sponsored the rally. Irwin said he hoped to send a message to Judge Greer, who is a graduate of UF's Levin College of Law, that not everyone supports the position of the court.
"We believe that Terri has the right to live," Irwin said.
I've got to get to bed, too, but your post made me think of something. You are aware, are you not, that the Florida *legal* definition of PVS differs greatly from the one that you just gave? Two totally different descriptions. Perhaps that's why some doctors say she is, and some say Terri isn't PVS. They are using two different definitions. By the standards given in the Florida law, Terri doesn't fit the bill, because she does give responses to stimuli, even if they are reflexive at times.
Think of her brain as having frayed wires or something. Sometimes there's a spark, and sometimes there isn't. According to Florida law, Terri is supposed to be *not sparking at all* in order to be able to have her feedng tube removed. But she does *spark* sometimes, even if it's reflexive sometimes, and I believe, intentional others. However, she doesn't have the energy or the stimulation to keep those sparks going for a long time. She gets tired and her battery wears down. She takes a long time to recharge.
Because the people who make the laws are not often doctors, they came up with a definition of PVS that they thought would be sufficient to keep people like Terri protected from an untimely death. But with George Greer on the bench, and Felos with his euthanasia-loving agenda, Terri is not safe. We are trying to protect her the way that the spirit of the Florida law was intended.
in the case of zero brain activity, you are correct. However, in many cases of injury or blood loss to the brain, the medulla, which controls respiration, heart rate, and other basal, non-voluntary functions, is left intact, while the cerebral cortex, which is where we think, can be completely destroyed. The reason is a difference in the path of blood flow and a longer survival time of the medulla tissue in the absence of blood. Basically, the medulla is the major priority, as it is also the last to go during excessive alcohol intake.
PVS is characterized as someone who has a completely non-functioning, destroyed cerebral cortex, but a functioning medulla, and perhaps cerebellum, which takes care of balance, and something else i cant remember. Other bodily functions, such as digestion, control of body temperature, etc, are largely controlled by hormones.
So, someone in this state can theoretically be a 100% unconsious, but be able to live indefinitely with a continuous source of nutrients and water.
well, it seems like the definition whcih i gave is similar to that of florida law, but maybe not similar to judge greers interpreatation of the law...
Both definitions seem to be very strict, and neither seem to be met by terri's condition.
It's called "principle," and it's obviously a foreign concept to you. I know you weren't trying to draw any fire, but what the hell does "knowing any of these people personally" have to do with it, much less merit a charge of arrogance?
No, I don't believe Terri is PVS. And according to Florida Statute, she's not.
765.101 (12) "Persistent vegetative state" means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:
(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.
Compare that to the testimony of all five doctors who agree she's conscious, has voluntary action, has cognitive behavior, and interacts purposefully with her environment. Some of those doctors are dissatisfied with the level of those qualities she possesses, or the frequency with which she displays them, but they all agree she has them. Some of the doctors agree she communicates, and could improve with the therapy she's been denied. So while some situations may be open to interpretation, Terri's situation is not.
Some patient really are PVS. I don't see that as a justification for executing them. Who has the right to decide that someone doesn't have the right to live, just because of the level of their disability? Allowing a dying patient to die when prolonging their life would just cause them agony is one thing, but actively starving and dehydrating someone to death because you don't approve of the quality of their life is quite another.
It can be very easy to deem someone subhuman when you have no concept of what they're going through. (I don't mean "you" specifically. I mean "you," me, or anyone, generically.) If you watched a relative live with a disability, and avoided getting close to them because of it, you really have no idea what they're experiencing. Or if you've never even known anyone who was severely disabled, you can't imagine what it's like. When you can't imagine yourself in that situation (except for the wild imagination of someone with no point of reference), you tend to think it's much worse than it actually is. You might think you'd rather die than live through a stroke. All the stroke survivers I know (or ever have known) are happy to have survived, despite their disabilites. I'm pretty sure there are exceptions, but to assume that those who would rather live with their disabilites than be murdered are the exceptions would be very insensitive, to say the least.
I hate getting old, but it sure beats the alternative.
"principle" is not a foreign concept to me. One of my PRINCIPLES is to not force my values, which work FOR ME, on someone whom I know nothing about. I do believe it is arrogant for someone to think that theyre belief structure is so perfect, that they feel comfortable forcing it upon others.
WOW. i think about 3/4 of the people on the website for some reason feel the need to start off with personal insults whenever they disagree with someone. thats not arrogannce, its just a lack of manners.
well, not that it makes me an expert, but I did go through a similar experience with my own father, and I believe in my heart that it was blessing that he passed away instead of slipping into a vegetative state. My reason for bringing this up is to show you that I am not making an insensitive, rushed judgement on people in this state, without any empathy for them or their family members.
That said, I can't see the point in artificially prolonging the life of a soul-less body. If family members wish to hold onto some sort of false hope (again, im not referring to Terri and her family), then, if we do not know for sure the preference of the patient, I suppose they have the right to keep the body metabolically functional for as long as they wish. A person in strict PVS has no feeling of pain (as determined by the lack of a physiological response), and would not know that they are starving or dehydrating. In fact, they would not know if they were NOT starving or dehydrating, and would not know if they were kept alive by a mechanical device for any amount of time.
if we disagree, so be it. But, I wonder, at what point, that is how much dependence on modern machinery, would you consider the persons life to be over? This could range anywhere from a simple feeding tube, to a heart-lung machine, all the way up through keeping tissue cultures alive in a lab.
We assume you have read posting guidelines...which means you've lurked for a long time and know the culture of the forum before you post.
Wishy washy "what makes you so perfect" whining will draw nothing but contempt around here. Most of us can articulate why we hold certain positions, and can do it quite well. Those who haven't thought about why they hold certain positions long enough to be able to articulate why are a general waste of our time.
You are perfectly welcome to be undecided, but don't presume to be critical others decision based on your own indecision.
well, youve confused my decision to not take a position as an indecision. that may sound weird, but there is a difference. Its not as though I just have not yet made up my mind. Rather, I have thought about the situation in depth, and have come to the conlusion that it is not my place to decide, even if only in my own mind, the fate of this woman whom I have never met, and whos family I know little of (other than what I have read).
I hope that makes my point more clear.
But you've also concluded it's no one elses place to decide, either (calling them arrogant), and that is different issue.
You REALLY need to lurk more... you'll get the hang of the place.
Some time back, hino stated that the ONLY reason he wasn't giving in to the Schindlers wish to take care of Terri, is because they were "making his life hell" with their litigation. Sounds a whole lot more like a garden variety grudge than a passionately caring hubby.
jl sounds like one of the subtler trolls to me.
These come in handy for me quite often. A wide variety of sources, a solid collection.
If that body is sans soul, then what reason down that vein could hino cite in defense of giving a hoot? None, of course. That "sans soul" body, however, is doing a pretty good job of undergoing emotions. Who says that "cogito ergo sum" is the supreme definition of life?
"Of the 40 patients diagnosed as being in the vegetative state, 10 (25%) remained vegetative, 13 (33%) slowly emerged from the vegetative state during the rehabilitation programme, and 17 (43%) were considered to have been misdiagnosed as vegetative. The identification of misdiagnosis was more common in the later part of the study period: two were recognised in 1992, one in 1993, four in 1994, and 10 in 1995."
Gosh isn't that odd that more were diagnosed later in the study? I wonder how that could happen? You don't think they're trying to make use of the diagnosis to help these people out the door, do you?
When was it that the kid in England was trampled at the soccer match, diagnosed as PVS and then dehydrated to death? I can't recall his name right now.
But this just proves my hypothesis. Tony Bland was big news in about 1993 - he was like their "starter case" - then in 1995 there is a sudden increase in diagnosed cases of PVS. (see my previous post)
"It is also evident that his brain was not a liquified mass, as some commentators had suggested."
"We have therefore two cases with similar presentation (anoxic brain damage) and with similar clinical features (persistent vegetative state). Although pathological examination in both cases confirmed severe anoxic damage, there are significant differences not only in the degree of damage but also in the main site of damage. Although our understanding of cerebral function is quite extensive, with mapping at the functional level of the motor and sensory cortex and a fairly sophisticated understanding of some of the processing that occurs in both the retina and visual cortex, there are also vast areas of the brain (the so called silent areas) where we have very little understanding of their function. The experience of neurosurgeons regularly reveals how, in some cases of trauma and tumours, large areas of the brain can be removed and yet there is good post operative functional recovery. Conversely slight damage to other small areas of the brain can have devastating clinical effects."
"The authors of the article describing Karen Quinlan's pathological findings draw attention to the limitations of our understanding of the neuroanatomical basis for human consciousness. At one time consciousness was though to reside in the cortex, then came our understanding of the limbic system and the role of the brain stem reticular formation in cerebral arousal. The findings in Karen Quinlan's brain suggested that the thalamus played a more crucial role in consciousness and awareness than was previously thought."
The variability of damage to different parts of the brain described in case reports of patients diagnosed as suffering from PVS, highlights the limitations of our understanding of human brain function. On a practical basis this should make us vigilant in how we talk when within earshot of unconscious patients. We should also be cautious that we do not equate lack of response to external stimuli as evidence that there is no awareness.
Maybe. I just figured him for a newbie whose only familiarity with logic is Mr. Spock. He sounds like a million other sheeple to me.
I read your post # 91.
I think that you hit the nail squarely on the head.
A simple feeding tube is not modern machinery. It was written about in medical journals as the 19th century (over a hundred years ago.) Food and water are not artificial. If you drink Nyquil before bed, do you consider it water? If you swallow a pill, is that food? Of course not! Food and water are not defined as "anything that you put in your mouth and swallow." If it's food, it's food, no matter how you receieve it. If it's not food, it's not food, no matter how you receive it. It's as simple as that.
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