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To: kosta50; Cronos; monkfan; Agrarian; Vicomte13; NYer; AlbionGirl; Canticle_of_Deborah

In haste. There is a basically Russian thelougemmenon which posits "toll houses" between earth and heaven. As for sins being forgiven or not before death, I think you're right. Unforgiven sin at death is simply unforgiven. On the other hand, if the judgment we face is actually a measurement of how like God we have become rather than a weighing in a balance of good deeds versus sins, perhaps dying with unforgiven sins isn't really much of an issue per se.


436 posted on 02/16/2005 12:49:47 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Cronos; monkfan; Agrarian; Vicomte13; AlbionGirl
Nothing impure can enter into the Kingdom of God (Revelations 21:27).

Every person will have to pay for their sins to "the very last penny" (Luke 12:59).

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Purgatory:"

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

439 posted on 02/16/2005 1:23:11 PM PST by NYer ("The Eastern Churches are the Treasures of the Catholic Church" - Pope John XXIII)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Agrarian; NYer
A while back, on EWTN's Catholic Answers live, a caller asked a question about purgratory which led the priest or whoever was responding to the caller to a discussion about it.

He referred to purgatory as a suburb of heaven, as opposed to a suburb of hell, the way it was supposedly looked at before. And, if I'm going to be honest about it, I never felt attached to or detached from the concept of purgatory. It didn't stick, because it didn't take. I do have to say, though, that contrary to what I used to think, I was not properly catechized at all, so I may be missing some or all of what is required to understand, and consequently hold close, the concept.

Seeing all of you in this discussion though, naturally led me to my catechism, and here's what it says:

'Those are punished for a time in purgatory who die in the state of grace but are guilty of venial sin, or have not fully satisfied for the temporal punishment due to their sins.

'The souls in purgatory are certain of entering heaven as soon as God's justice has been fully satisfied.'

Next, the following Scripture is cited:

'The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15). My catechism is a Baltimore, 1952 edition.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that during that EWTN program, the person providing the answers went on to state that sin, while forgiven, carried with it a fixed cost. This was in response to a caller who questioned him about justice.

The priest went on to state that while everyone who ascends to heaven experiences perfect joy, those who were more righteous, sinned less and kept the Lord's word and commandments more diligently in this life, enjoyed a more perfect vision or experience of God in the next.

I'm curious to know if the Orthodox posit something similar to this, or how they would view this question of justice and the beatific vision.

463 posted on 02/16/2005 4:52:46 PM PST by AlbionGirl
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