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To: Kolokotronis; Cronos; kosta50

Purgatory.

I won't "tackle" it so much as explain what I believe it is and why I believe that. I will leave it to the properly schooled theologians on the thread to slap me silly afterwards.

Purgatory is not a PLACE, but a state of being.

The problem is Scriptural.
On the one hand, you have James saying 'break one law, however small, and you've broken them all'.
You have people who have already sinned in the Bible consistently praying God to blot out their sins. Obviously they are still living.
You have Biblical statements that those with sin upon them shall not enter the Kingdom of God.
But then you have, especially in the Maccabbees, a specific rite of prayers and atonements and offerings for the dead.

Now, one argument - a Protestant one (they have cut the Maccabbees out of their Bible, partly to get rid of this particular problem) - is that when you die, that's it. Whatever sin you died with is upon you.
And if you take other parts of Scripture literally, if you die with sin, you're damned.
But the Bible says otherwise in Maccabbees. Prayers and atonement for the dead in light of the resurrection are held to be efficacious in the Bible itself.

What does one do with this welter, this spaghetti bowl of authority? Well, what I think what one does NOT do is assert some absolute certitude, like "Die with any sins, and you are damned", because the Bible says that, but doesn't say that.

"Purgatory" is a concept which Maccabbees brings to the fore. Apparently, grace is available for sins post mortem. We should not DEPEND on this and intentionally sin in life...but we should not DENY it either, because it is explicitly in the Bible, in Maccabbees.

So, when I say Purgatory is a state, not a place, I am being as objective as I can be with the confusing evidence. God apparently has provided a mechanism, a safety catch, for souls upon death. How it works certainly cannot be determined by the Scripture, although prayers for the dead clearly are indicated. (And indeed, if there were no such "catchment", then prayers for the dead would be pointless, in vain, and accomplish nothing other than make us feel good - they would be SUPERSTITION. But they aren't superstition, because of Maccabbees.)

Now, when we try to get any more specific than that...other than in imaginative art like Dante's "Purgatorio"...it starts getting ridiculous. An exception would be if a Saint has had revealed by God to him or her some aspects about the state of Purgatory. To my knowledge, that hasn't really happened.

So, given all of that, a STATE of Purgatory is a necessary thing, for the Bible to work, especially given Maccabbees. But a PLACE called Purgatory is not perforce necessary, and it goes to far to assert it absent a revelation of a Saint.

You are now free to fire at will on the big target I have painted on myself.


418 posted on 02/16/2005 5:33:06 AM PST by Vicomte13 (La nuit s'acheve!)
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To: Vicomte13; Kolokotronis; Cronos
Kolo once mentioned Russian "High House" as a purgatesque concept, but it does not exist in the Orthodox East.

By leaving with our sins means that we do not repent before we die. Those sins are not forgiven.

The Orthodox pray for the dead as an expression of thanks to God for having saved the souls of the departed. The particular judgment occurs immediately after physical death and that judgment is in essence the same as the final judgment -- merciful and just.

425 posted on 02/16/2005 6:49:10 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Vicomte13; Kolokotronis; AlbionGirl; Canticle_of_Deborah; MarMema
The Orthodox Church's sense of praying for the dead is not particularly well-defined. Above all, we repeatedly in the services and in our private prayers entreat God to "grant rest to the souls of Thy servants who have fallen asleep." It is just something we do and have always done. We cannot do anything else -- not so much because we are instructed to do so by the Church as because we cannot help but do so. Our personal relationships with the departed continue after their departure.

We are told that our prayers benefit the dead, but we are not told much at all about what exactly that benefit is. There are scattered stories in the lives of the saints and in the spiritual writings of the Fathers that give some indication of the kind of help that is received, but it is all pretty circumspect, and care is taken not to try to define anything. The point to these stories (some of which are in the links I'm posting) seems not so much to be a satisfying of our desire to "know what happens" as it is to stir us to remember to pray for the departed.

Here are a couple of links to articles that talk a little more about it:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/pray_reposed.aspx

Coming up in a couple of weeks is the Saturday before the Sunday of the Last Judgment (Meatfare Sunday). This is 9 days before the start of Great Lent proper, and is the most important day of general commemoration of the departed. It is traditional to serve a Liturgy for the departed on this day. This year at our parish we will be also serving the Vespers the evening before, on Friday night. I am currently preparing the materials for this service (one of the melodies -- "In paradise of old..." --has been preserved only in Byzantine chant, so Kolokotronis will be happy to know that I'll be warbling away in Plagal Mode 4!)

Here are the stichera that are chanted to the melody "In paradise of old...":

O ye faithful, remembering today by name all the dead from all the ages who have lived in piety and faith, let us sing praises to the Lord and Savior, asking Him fervently to give them in the hour of judgment a good defence before our God who judges all the earth. May they receive a place at his right hand in joy; may they dwell in glory with the righteous and the saints, and be counted worthy of His heavenly Kingdom.

By Thine own Blood, O Savior, Thou hast ransomed mortal men, and by Thy death Thou hast delivered us from bitter death, granting us eternal life by Thy Resurrection. Give rest then, O Lord, to all those who have fallen asleep in godliness, whether in wilderness or city, on the sea or land, in every place, both princes, priests and bishops, monks and married people, of every age and line, and count them worthy of Thy heavenly Kingdom.

Through Thy rising from the dead, O Christ, death rules no longer over those that die in faith. Therefore we pray fervently: Give rest in Thy courts and in the bosom of Abraham to those Thy servants from Adam to this present day who have worshipped Thee in purity, our fathers and brethren, friends and kin, all who in different ways have offered faithful service to Thee in this life and now have gone to dwell with Thee, O God; and count them worthy of Thy heavenly Kingdom.

434 posted on 02/16/2005 12:09:58 PM PST by Agrarian
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